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Thread: Warrior Tank threat VS other Tanking Classes

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    Ascendant Holyroller12's Avatar
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    Default Warrior Tank threat VS other Tanking Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosbringer12 View Post
    So I'm not sure if any other warrior tanks have this problem and i only know one other warrior tank that I actually talk to who has experienced this, but when i'm tanking with any other class, be it clerics, mages and rogues, they always seem to pull threat off of me without even trying.. to the point where I have to tell them to just auto attack. It's more of a recent issue for me and i'm not doing anything differently rotation wise for threat than I used to or than what's listed in the 2 guides you have posted. The one ability I know for sure from clerics that rips it off is Hammer of Duty. I'm not sure specifically what rogues and mages do to rip it off of me. Any ideas? :|
    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    I've actually noticed this as well, but it's mostly with Clerics.
    These posts are originally from the 3.0 Tank Guides, but there seems to be a lot of back and forth on a entirely different subject so I decided to make a new thread in case anyone else who has experienced this issue can also post here.

    For me it's all 3 of the other classes that I have this problem with, but for the other warrior I talked to he's seen it happen against mainly rogues while RR has seen it mainly against clerics.

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    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Rogue thing is probably because of that shiny mastery where they got their tank damage penalty removed from guardian phase.
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    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    I think the problem lies in the fact that VK doesn't have any abilities that have a higher threat modifier attached to them and has very low initial burst-threat because of gcd restrictions. For example, in Paladin most tanks use Light's Decree (travel time), Righteous Charge and a Pacifying (throw in some Block reactives too) to establish a good baseline of high threat at the start of a fight. All of these abilities, especially LD, have high threat mods attached and another tank typically won't pull off since it's very bursty as well with all the consecutive hits. Then, you look at VK which has fewer bursty options to use on pull since it needs to get into melee to get Surge threat built up. Your options are:
    • Unstable Reaction if you have AP for it, and even then the damage comes on a tick-by-tick basis so the threat built depends on each tick.
    • Reckless Strike/Destructive Forces isn't very good since it's gcd restricted and doesn't have high threat mods attached. Very dps-dependent.
    • Discharge works similar to RS/DF as in it has a slightly better threat mod, but is still bound by the gcd.
    • Tempest is really the best option because of its higher threat mod, but it requires you to run into melee and the damage/threat applied is heavily delayed.

    Meanwhile you have a Cleric throw their extremely high-threat Hammer at the target and it pulls off almost immediately. It is very strange how this didn't seem to be an issue before, but all of a sudden we're seeing more and more instances of VK losing initial threat to the off tank with little effort on the OT's behalf. You shouldn't need to weave in a Spark to hold threat off another tank that even gives a grace period of not attacking whatsoever for up to 5s. These have been my observations as of late anyways.
    Last edited by Sedvick; 03-12-2015 at 10:46 PM.

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    Telaran Ethaar's Avatar
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    I noticed that as well. Nowadays I just let the cleric tank do the initial pull. Opening with Discharge for ST and Tempest for AE seems to do the trick when tanking with a rogue or a mage, although I did have a rogue rip aggro from me without any taunts on adds on Finric even though I hit them at least with Tempest and Ragestorm before he blinked in. It was weird. So weird I remember it after three months It's nothing gamebreaking, but it does get annoying.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    I havent noticed any issues related to single target threat but AoE seems to be lacking.
    Quote Originally Posted by elfaraon View Post
    you really need to play more pyro . I bet you are a warrior or rogue so your opinion is not accurate at all. By the way pyro is not even close to have the highest burst in the game tell that to a sin or warlord

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    Ascendant Holyroller12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    I think the problem lies in the fact that VK doesn't have any abilities that have a higher threat modifier attached to them and has very low initial burst-threat because of gcd restrictions. For example, in Paladin most tanks use Light's Decree (travel time), Righteous Charge and a Pacifying (throw in some Block reactives too) to establish a good baseline of high threat at the start of a fight. All of these abilities, especially LD, have high threat mods attached and another tank typically won't pull off since it's very bursty as well with all the consecutive hits. Then, you look at VK which has fewer bursty options to use on pull since it needs to get into melee to get Surge threat built up. Your options are:
    • Unstable Reaction if you have AP for it, and even then the damage comes on a tick-by-tick basis so the threat built depends on each tick.
    • Reckless Strike/Destructive Forces isn't very good since it's gcd restricted and doesn't have high threat mods attached. Very dps-dependent.
    • Discharge works similar to RS/DF as in it has a slightly better threat mod, but is still bound by the gcd.
    • Tempest is really the best option because of its higher threat mod, but it requires you to run into melee and the damage/threat applied is heavily delayed.

    Meanwhile you have a Cleric throw their extremely high-threat Hammer at the target and it pulls off almost immediately. It is very strange how this didn't seem to be an issue before, but all of a sudden we're seeing more and more instances of VK losing initial threat to the off tank with little effort on the OT's behalf. You shouldn't need to weave in a Spark to hold threat off another tank that even gives a grace period of not attacking whatsoever for up to 5s. These have been my observations as of late anyways.
    Thanks. I appreciate the in depth reply For me it's not just the initial threat, but just throughout the fight in general when 2 tanks are required. It's easy enough for my offtanks to just not go all out on their rotations, but they shouldn't have to do it obviously. I thought it was just my fault for a while until I heard another warrior say the same thing was happening to him.

    AoE threat hasn't really been an issue for me. Not since they nerfed cleric faceroll DoL threat back in 2.8 ;)

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    Telaran Ides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosbringer12 View Post
    Thanks. I appreciate the in depth reply For me it's not just the initial threat, but just throughout the fight in general when 2 tanks are required. It's easy enough for my offtanks to just not go all out on their rotations, but they shouldn't have to do it obviously. I thought it was just my fault for a while until I heard another warrior say the same thing was happening to him.

    AoE threat hasn't really been an issue for me. Not since they nerfed cleric faceroll DoL threat back in 2.8 ;)
    I find it hard to reply to threat comparisons atm since I went from hard-core raide to more casual since 3.0. However I've found initial always lower compared to the rest, but over time I made up for it and my threat was as strong or higher in the end then the rest (only mages is a problem, but they had insane threat to sell the soul ;P).

    If in a raidsituation you need a 2nd tank and you need to swap the other should learn to control his aggro. Personally I never cared for how much the others have, since if they don't hold back and insist on going max all the time I just let them: the other tank just caused a wipe and learned something about playing together and teamwork. I would call aggro an issue if you'd lose it to dps'ers imo, which atm I don't see happen very easily (warriors build enough aggro to stay ahead).

    Maybe it's harsh to actually wipe a raid over something like that... but I don't care: it's teamwork and group effort. If for anything I loved the de-taunt option lotro had for a while: don't wanna join the team? no worries, whoppa I'll through in the detaunts, you get aggro and die happy hunting
    Last edited by Ides; 03-16-2015 at 04:53 AM.

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    Telaran
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    I can't say threat has ever really been an issue for me as a warrior, other than the obvious Cleric/Mage using a giant threat ability from ranged while I'm trying to pewpew pull a boss for start of fight positioning.

    My main complaint with warrior threat is our lack of ten target abilities. Every other class has spam-able 10 target hitting abilities. Warriors only get one ability that can hit 10 targets every 5 seconds in both of our trees, and we can get one of them as 61 point specs. We have several good five target aoe abilities, sure, but there are certainly some times where surge frequency just isn't as much as you'd like.
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    Plane Touched Dimples's Avatar
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    Pretty much what everyone else is saying. I replied to a question similar to this off in the post about Warrior tanks started by RR, but copy/pasting it here (to save time on reloading a new page).

    I see this quite often myself. I've not had the time yet to do the full math behind this, but here's what I've been able to ascertain so far.

    The only times I see this happening is with inexperienced, or incompetent, Off-tanks.

    Normally, I pull bosses with Reckless Strike (so Destructive Forces gets triggered too) if not at 3 AP and still ranged, Devouring Blow if 3 AP and within melee range.

    Rogue's seem to cause this more often (due to them breeding likes rabbits on steroids and more of them around) in that they blink to the boss, and end up using one of the "generates additional threat" (Shadow Blitz) ones to start out with, followed up with Guarded Steel (which also generates additional threat) as their first attack. So in less than 2 of their GCD's, they've managed to get 2, and about ready to hit their 3rd, increased threat attacks off and I'm just getting ready for my 2nd attack (1/2 second yet to go for it to go off).

    Cleric's that OT and start out their first attacks with a pre-loaded Total Assurance followed up with Hammer of Duty, or just plain old HoD, then Total Assurance and another HoD. (1 or 2 GCD's and they'll snap agro from ya fer sure).

    Mage's (*ugh* Mages) These are hands down the worst beginners I've seen. First cast being Arcane Projection, cuz they copied some macro from somewhere. As they're on the boss, and I have initial threat it gets cast on me. Which now reduces my threat output and them now taking 100% of my threat and giving it to them, followed up with them casting highest threat ability they have. And I'm now screwed for the next 10 seconds.

    In a nutshell, I've only had time to get 1, sometimes 2 (if I poke em on my 3-2-1 countdown on 2 I can get 2 off) attacks off before the OT, believing they're gods gift to the universe, ends up starting out with their highest threat generating ability and rips agro from me. Hence my remark about inexperienced/incompetent OT's.

    If I can get 3 attacks off before the OT goes all ape-**** on me, I don't lose agro until they actually taunt. Or for pulls I do Reckless Strike(Destructive Forces) *groan* Spark, until they learn their opening rotation as an OT.

    The above are all on ST Boss pulls, for AoE pulls, it's Tempest FTW on getting into range, and they're mine.

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  10. #10
    Telaran
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    We sure need some love here.

    Anyone got some good tips on fighting rogues with 200k bursts as vk

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    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    What I've come to terms with at this point is that if I'm in a 2-tank+ scenario, let the other tank pull first since VK just doesn't have capable burst threat to keep off another tank at the start without a taunt.
    Last edited by Sedvick; 04-09-2015 at 11:42 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Pokkah's Avatar
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    Mage tank aggro is ridik xD
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    Soulwalker Jarial's Avatar
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    with warrior tanking, be it pally or VK i have to use the aoe (tempest or sweeping strike) on bosses just to keep aggro, otherwise a dps or healer will steal threat off me. i'm only a 115k tank but still i should be able to keep some threat from those T1 raid geared dps players.

    warriors need some love

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    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarial View Post
    with warrior tanking, be it pally or VK i have to use the aoe (tempest or sweeping strike) on bosses just to keep aggro, otherwise a dps or healer will steal threat off me. i'm only a 115k tank but still i should be able to keep some threat from those T1 raid geared dps players.

    warriors need some love
    I have to do the same with high dps rogues or mages in my group constantly at 130k VK
    AOE desperately needs more attacks other than tempest and airburst

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corupt2057 View Post
    I have to do the same with high dps rogues or mages in my group constantly at 130k VK
    AOE desperately needs more attacks other than tempest and airburst
    Ragestorm, Void Storm. Unstable Reaction.
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