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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: New Soul Feedback - Liberator

  1. #511
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    It was ALWAYS going to be a niche spec. That's what it was designed for, the complaints against it being "to stronk" is what killed most of it, and not enough people fought against those instead of ZOMG AOE HEALER BLARG TO NICHE RAR.

    That's liberators' biggest flaw. It's a niche spec, and it's not nearly good enough at it's niche to make it worth it.
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  2. #512
    Rift Master GreatWhiteNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repster View Post
    It was ALWAYS going to be a niche spec. That's what it was designed for, the complaints against it being "to stronk" is what killed most of it, and not enough people fought against those instead of ZOMG AOE HEALER BLARG TO NICHE RAR.

    That's liberators' biggest flaw. It's a niche spec, and it's not nearly good enough at it's niche to make it worth it.
    which is poor design, when a class only has one of something making it niche is a terrible idea. would be like making the mage tank only be able to tank adds..liberator is a terrible soul no two ways about it.

    we should have a niche melee soul which i think we are getting with reaver that is unique to melee. IE Dom for mages.

  3. #513
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    Cloro can do about the same hps plus provide clover, debuffs and damage than liberator. Liberator is just terribly designed. It doesn't even have any talent modifiers for synergy like warden does.. Another 1.5 sec gcd class and which liberator was based off of. There is so so so much wrong with the soul. It gives me a headache to think about it.
    Last edited by Planetx; 10-05-2014 at 01:25 AM.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    Cloro can do about the same hps plus provide clover, debuffs and damage than liberator. Liberator is just terribly designed. It doesn't even have any talent modifiers for synergy like warden does.. Another 1.5 sec gcd class and which liberator was based off of. There is so so so much wrong with the soul. It gives me a headache to think about it.
    I think one big playstyle issue Liberator has is Mass Casualty Response. The entire idea of having to refresh the hot before it falls off (but not too quickly or you're wasting a lot of hps) is flawed for a healing soul because of unpredictability. For dps souls it's fine to have this mechanic, but for healing it becomes annoying to the point it's not worth it any more (see soothing stream in Warden). You run into too many scenarios where it falls off because you actually have to heal people, and then reapplying takes up more GCDs.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    I think one big playstyle issue Liberator has is Mass Casualty Response. The entire idea of having to refresh the hot before it falls off (but not too quickly or you're wasting a lot of hps) is flawed for a healing soul because of unpredictability. For dps souls it's fine to have this mechanic, but for healing it becomes annoying to the point it's not worth it any more (see soothing stream in Warden). You run into too many scenarios where it falls off because you actually have to heal people, and then reapplying takes up more GCDs.
    I've tried to keep MCR up all the time, but there's always some moment when it happens. Granted, the output even from 3 stacks is more supplemental. To be fair though, Warden has healing flood, or does no one maintain it save it activating with monsoon? I haven't played warden since 2.3 or so.

    I suppose one solution would be to have another Liberator finisher refresh it as a second effect? The downside of this would be it could lead to a rotation-based play.

    Alternatively, have damaging lib abilities like persecute and dichotomy of pain refresh it. I've only played lib in 5 mans, and in there it's tough to do any dps while keeping people alive at the same time. I'm content with that in 5 mans, but in raids I know I have to do dps or I'm getting carried. I don't want to be carried, I want to help my team as best I can.

    EDIT: Granted, the reason it's difficult in 5 mans is that you're juggling 3x MCR, 3x Prolonged Recovery on the tank, Liberation treatment (Which grants no attack points), and using first aid/fast relief to keep the tank up. In a raid I wouldn't really have to maintain prolonged recovery so it'd be a little easier only having to use 1 GCD to maintain MCR.
    Last edited by GroovedSpines; 10-05-2014 at 06:55 AM. Reason: clarification

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroovedSpines View Post
    I've tried to keep MCR up all the time, but there's always some moment when it happens. Granted, the output even from 3 stacks is more supplemental. To be fair though, Warden has healing flood, or does no one maintain it save it activating with monsoon? I haven't played warden since 2.3 or so.

    I suppose one solution would be to have another Liberator finisher refresh it as a second effect? The downside of this would be it could lead to a rotation-based play.

    Alternatively, have damaging lib abilities like persecute and dichotomy of pain refresh it. I've only played lib in 5 mans, and in there it's tough to do any dps while keeping people alive at the same time. I'm content with that in 5 mans, but in raids I know I have to do dps or I'm getting carried. I don't want to be carried, I want to help my team as best I can.

    EDIT: Granted, the reason it's difficult in 5 mans is that you're juggling 3x MCR, 3x Prolonged Recovery on the tank, Liberation treatment (Which grants no attack points), and using first aid/fast relief to keep the tank up. In a raid I wouldn't really have to maintain prolonged recovery so it'd be a little easier only having to use 1 GCD to maintain MCR.
    Healing Flood applies to 20 players now and has never stacked more than once. Soothing stream stacks four times but because of its clunkiness is never used.
    Last edited by Ahov; 10-05-2014 at 10:06 AM.

  7. #517
    Rift Disciple GroovedSpines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Healing Flood applies to 20 players now and has never stacked more than once. Soothing stream stacks four times but because of its clunkiness is never used.
    Doh. I mixed SS and HF in my mind. My apologies.

    I did notice one thing on the PTS in liberator's favor: You can almost match a pure HPS build using tank souls with your last 15 points.

    Using the raid DPS test gear, all of the AP essences. My trinket is limited to Twyl's Facade because there was no trinket at the test NPC. I tested the following builds to compare Group Assistance between all of them.

    All of these are 61 liberator with the +5% healing (multiplicative) mastery on the PTS.

    1. 10 WL 5 Temp (pure HPS/DPS): +20% AP/Wpn contrib, +10% STR, +15% DPS gift
    Group Assistance: 4225 - 4670

    2. 10 WL 5 Pal (A little tank) : +10% AP/Wpn Contrib, +10% STR, +10% healing from builders, +10% DPS gift, +5% tank soul gift
    Group Assistance: 4073-4501

    3. 5VK 10 Pal (All tank) : +20% AP/Wpn contrib, +10% healing from builders, +15% Tank soul gift
    Group Assistance: 4118 - 4551

    Normally I'd say "whoa! That's >100 less than a pure HPS build!" But considering the health pools we have on the PTS atm it seems a worthy sacrifice.

    Just a thought. Could have some corner case usage for progression. Maybe intended for pvp, I dunno.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroovedSpines View Post
    2. 10 WL 5 Pal (A little tank) : +10% AP/Wpn Contrib, +10% STR, +10% healing from builders, +10% DPS gift, +5% tank soul gift
    Group Assistance: 4073-4501

    3. 5VK 10 Pal (All tank) : +20% AP/Wpn contrib, +10% healing from builders, +15% Tank soul gift
    Group Assistance: 4118 - 4551

    Normally I'd say "whoa! That's >100 less than a pure HPS build!" But considering the health pools we have on the PTS atm it seems a worthy sacrifice.

    Just a thought. Could have some corner case usage for progression. Maybe intended for pvp, I dunno.
    Pretty sure the paladin points are a waste because the majority of your heals as a lib raid healer are finishers (mcr, cm, dop, and deliverance depending on the instance.) I've never seen group assistance + ameliorate anywhere close to 50% of my hps
    Last edited by Nublin; 10-05-2014 at 12:09 PM.

  9. #519
    Rift Disciple GroovedSpines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nublin View Post
    Pretty sure the paladin points are a waste because the majority of your heals as a lib raid healer are finishers (mcr, cm, dop, and deliverance depending on the instance.) I've never seen group assistance + ameliorate anywhere close to 50% of my hps
    I wish it was for all healing, but I'm going to check the PTS later to test this. My thought was builders as in GAssist + our DPS builders (Comfort zone heals). It's weirdly specific that only builders get the benefit, though.

    Either way, here's hoping that lib is not only fun to play but viable for raiding in 3.0.

  10. #520
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    If you don't intend to do any dps then you could use 10 Warlord, 5 Void Knight for extra survivability, when VK gets updated, and if you don't have Tempest for some reason.

    I do hate that you have to waste gcds to get your AoE HoT up, as well as your ST HoT, so why not offer something close to what warden as to insure that Lib adds dps and improves it's ability to heal.

    Damaging attacks cause 1 additional stack of Prolonged Recovery or Mass Casualty Response to apply when Prolonged Recovery or Mass Casualty Response are used, per stack of <->. Max of 2 stacks. Last 6s. While out of combat, you gain a stack of <-> every 4s.

    You would properly have to add a passive in the root at 54 points, as I don't see any room in the talents section.
    Last edited by Burninalways; 10-05-2014 at 12:57 PM.
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  11. #521
    Rift Disciple GroovedSpines's Avatar
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    Granted, as liberators have a 0.5s GCD when using MCR, Liberation treatment, and Prolonged recovery, it's not quite the same as a warden stacking SS. Though warden is the closest to us in concept, there are some differences.

    Generally when I heal 5 mans it's stuff like MCR -> Persecute -> MCR -> Persecute in quick succession. If MCR is maxed, put up prolonged recovery (if it's not already up) or liberation treatment (if not already up).

    Warden has standard GCDs, but higher heal values and more cooldowns.
    Liberator has a mix of normal and 0.5s GCDs with lower heal values and fewer cooldowns. In exchange for these lower values and fewer CDs, most of them have a CD of 15s instead of 30s-1m for warden.

    After testing a few things on the PTS earlier, yeah I can conclude that going all tank souls sadly is enough of an HPS loss to only be worth it in pvp.

    I was wondering about the Guard stat though. It only works if you have a tank soul buff 6pts in VK or paladin. The idea of it (an aura that reduces damage received) sounds great as a sort of thing a liberator could spend 6 points in VK for without losing much HPS. I haven't had the opportunity to tank on the PTS yet so I don't know what sort of values you can get with guard.

    I'd imagine if it was significant then a lib healer could stack with the ranged to reduce the damage they get outside of the damage reduction they can already give with stuff like ameliorate. Would be cool if it was true. Haven't tried it yet.

    As the tank can't be everywhere, it does sound advantageous to lose 1 point to get an aura that reduces damage received by nearby raid members. Has anyone looked into this?
    Last edited by GroovedSpines; 10-05-2014 at 05:35 PM.

  12. #522
    Prophet of Telara Meowy's Avatar
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    I'm no expert in this stuff... actually I'm far from it but if I could make a suggestion, what if Liberators have a skill similar to 'Beacon of Light' from WoW's Holy paladin where he can mark anyone with it and any Single-Target healing he does to someone else will also be applied to his marked target? This may include single-target HoTs as well.
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  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meowy View Post
    I'm no expert in this stuff... actually I'm far from it but if I could make a suggestion, what if Liberators have a skill similar to 'Beacon of Light' from WoW's Holy paladin where he can mark anyone with it and any Single-Target healing he does to someone else will also be applied to his marked target? This may include single-target HoTs as well.
    Why? You don't need to use you ST healing on more then one target. That's what AoE skills, which are the majority of liberators skillset, is for.

    For a ST healer, sure, it;s a fine choice, but liberator is an AoE healer.
    Burst before or after Rift implosion, never both.

  14.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #524
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    Just to give you guys a heads up...

    I've been doing some work on the Liberator the past few days based on feedback that I got from folks running dungeons on PTS. As such, here are a list of things I've changed so far and there will probably be a few more tweaks in the future.
    • Increased healing power of Liberation Treatment, Group Assistance, Mass Casualty Response, Ameliorate, and Prolonged Recovery.
    • Dichotomy of Pain is now a single target healing finisher.
    • Pain Management still adds the 4/8s HoT to Dichotomy of Pain.
    If you run experts on PTS to test this out, please use the expert gear box with only the equipment/runes supplied. Dream Orbs from other boxes are fine.

  15. #525
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    Look out might be coming back to warrior if vladd keeps this up

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