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Thread: Proposed Beastmaster changes

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    Default Proposed Beastmaster changes

    The point of this thread is to submit changes for BM with feedback from the community to tackle its quality of life issues. A few of its main drawbacks are its energy issues from reactives and OGCD abilities as well as its dot management with requirements to melee range.

    The other main purpose of this thread is to provide quality feedback from a 'raiders perspective' for Vladd so that we may expedite changes to the class.

    The following suggestions i feel would be beneficial but not break the soul.

    Hunt master - add cutting slash
    Abolition - increases initial hit damage of cutting slash by 25-50% as well as when using hitting a target with fierce strike reduces their healing received by 5-10%.

    Messy wounds - change to passive buff
    Loyalty - refunctioned to energy buff similar to living energy(wont stack)
    Summoner greater pet - cast time reduced by 50%
    Flesh rip - refunctioned to proc when the warrior critically hits
    Primal lucidity - base damage increase by 15%, cast time reduction removed.
    Call of the forest - increase to 10%
    Command to recover - added effect, upon use also places a shield worth 5% of the party or raid members maximum health on them.

    Guardianship - increase to 10 members instead of 5
    Call of kinship - refunctioned to increase healing received by 2% after a finisher
    fury unleashed - passive buff
    Primal fury - increases both companion and the warriors crit chance by 6% at 3/3

    Post constructive feedback only please. Any issues you have seen in raids while using the soul and how you would fix its quality of life issues. Be descriptive and have at least SOME experience playing the soul.

  2. #2
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefertari View Post
    The point of this thread is to submit changes for BM with feedback from the community to tackle its quality of life issues. A few of its main drawbacks are its energy issues from reactives and OGCD abilities as well as its dot management with requirements to melee range.

    The other main purpose of this thread is to provide quality feedback from a 'raiders perspective' for Vladd so that we may expedite changes to the class.

    The following suggestions i feel would be beneficial but not break the soul.

    Hunt master - add cutting slash
    Abolition - increases initial hit damage of cutting slash by 25-50% as well as when using hitting a target with fierce strike reduces their healing received by 5-10%.

    Messy wounds - change to passive buff
    Loyalty - refunctioned to energy buff similar to living energy(wont stack)
    Summoner greater pet - cast time reduced by 50%
    Flesh rip - refunctioned to proc when the warrior critically hits
    Primal lucidity - base damage increase by 15%, cast time reduction removed.
    Call of the forest - increase to 10%
    Command to recover - added effect, upon use also places a shield worth 5% of the party or raid members maximum health on them.

    Guardianship - increase to 10 members instead of 5
    Call of kinship - refunctioned to increase healing received by 2% after a finisher
    fury unleashed - passive buff
    Primal fury - increases both companion and the warriors crit chance by 6% at 3/3

    Post constructive feedback only please. Any issues you have seen in raids while using the soul and how you would fix its quality of life issues. Be descriptive and have at least SOME experience playing the soul.
    great ideas Nefy. i would like to add changing calming influence to a 5 sec stun on a 15 sec cd or leave it alone but add something to not break on damage and add a cd to the ability.

    also would like to see some energy fixes so BM can be played more in PvP.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple superhbman's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if a class re-design is on the table. I'm thinking of moving away from DoTs, because Beastmaster in it's current form is more of a DoTmaster. I haven't had much experience in other games' idea of the Beastmaster though.

    One idea I had is that if the pet isn't too much of a burden (making it highly resistant to all raid AoE, make raid encounters more pet-friendly, etc.) then I was thinking of shifting some of the Beastmaster's damage to the pet. Currently, I think that the Necromancer and Elementalist is more of a pet class than Beastmaster is. They have more pet synergy and they pets account for about 40% of their damage, compared to about 20% as a 61 BM, about 15% or so as 54 and about 12% as a 48.

    I was thinking to make Beastmaster a pet-ier pet class. Give them the ability to have one permanent pet (maybe a few choices in this with different skill sets) and one or more temporary cooldown-based pets, or a second pet. Maybe like a pvp-oriented bird pet that has some cc like stuns, slows, disarms, and revealing stealthed units, or a dps-oriented wolf pet that can provide dps increasing debuffs, increasing damage taken and crit rate of attacks taken, the stuff Archons and Bards have that BMs currently don't.


    As for current form changes, I'd like Call of Blood to be moved either lower in the root tree or into the talent tree. Maybe place Call of Blood where Primal Heal currently is (tier 3 talent), move Primal Heal to where Vicious Blow currently is (tier 2 talent), Vicious Blow to 51 point root, Primal Lucidity to 54 point root, and buff Fierce Strike's damage.

    I'd like Strike to Main be calculated off attack power rather than strength, BM doesn't have many strength modifiers.

    I don't see the point of Primal Heal. No suggestions, but wanting to point this out.

    P.S. Oh, and make all Calls proc of BM-only finishers. Just realized that if Call of Blood is in tier 3, then everyone would take it >_<.
    Last edited by superhbman; 01-31-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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    The current problem Beastmaster face is it's slow ramp up time, it's complete lack of target switching and how it is affected by disconnects.

    It doesn't need more damage, nor does it need more crit chance. A 54 beastmaster can get it's crit chance to near 50% with the good build (Paragon...).

    What I'd rather prefer having is this...
    - Call of Kinship also increase healing received by all party/raid members.
    - Hunt master also increase the range on Cutting Slash by 10/20 meters.
    - Replace Primal heal by... Bloodrage (30 seconds Cooldown): For the next 10 seconds, Cutting Slash applies 3 stacks of bleeding instead of 1.

    Those 3 changes will reduce how disconnects affect the beastmaster and reduce the ramp up time greatly.
    No other changes are needed.
    Beastmaster is a powerful support. In it's current state, it is too easy to fail as a beastmaster while warrior DPS options are so easy mode that nearly all warrior pull ******ed amount of DPS from barely doing anything. Meanwhile, the support role is filled by a bard because most rogues are failing so hard it's not even funny.
    On any melee-friendly fight I'd take a Beastmaster over a 61 bard simply because it brings far much more DPS to the table then a bard ever will. (and let's be honest... aside from Battle bard to replace an healer, a bard is actually the least useful out of the 3 support because it gives the least damage increase to the group)


    Edit: As for the pet part, beastmaster without a pet loose nearly half of it's DPS. The whole point of the beastmaster is to hunt with your primal companion. Without the pet, the warrior loose it's synergy. The pet procs your out of globals, add DoTs for you to use and buff you while on your side, you buff your pet increasing it's damage and enraging it. Obviously, the pet damage feels very low, but it's a support spec. Don't expect the pet to outdps a full fledged DPS pet.
    Last edited by Snap; 01-31-2014 at 09:59 AM.
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    I think if they do multiple pets like they were planning, then they could utilize pet switching to help out the soul quite a bit!

    Tanky pet - I propose a bear!
    DPS pet - the current one works great
    Supportive pet - has some 5 man heals, some dps, maybe some single target heals too. I'm thinking a Hawk. No one has a bird as a pet yet! and it'd fit with theme of beastmaster. Could see it flying around to different party members healing them or cleansing them Would be a great way to give BM a cleanse since archon has one.
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 01-31-2014 at 10:26 AM.
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    Rift Disciple superhbman's Avatar
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    Just want to preface by saying that I want to bounce ideas back and forth, so feedback appreciated.

    More:
    I'd like some sort method to shorten the rebuff time. An ability to cast all available Calls would be nice, and maybe make Bonds persists through death (but not buff people while the Warrior is dead), or this.


    Responses:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefertari View Post
    Primal lucidity - base damage increase by 15%, cast time reduction removed.
    Call of the forest - increase to 10%
    This would have to be reflected on Archons as well, since these abilities are supposed to be analogues of Surging Flare and Burning Purpose respectively. Also, with this change to Primal Lucidity, it would lose it's special thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    - Replace Primal heal by... Bloodrage (30 seconds Cooldown): For the next 10 seconds, Cutting Slash applies 3 stacks of bleeding instead of 1.
    I like this. What if Bloodrage makes Cutting Slash hit 3 times or hit once and grant 3 attack points as well? It can then be followed up with Tearing Slash on the new target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Edit: As for the pet part, beastmaster without a pet loose nearly half of it's DPS. The whole point of the beastmaster is to hunt with your primal companion. Without the pet, the warrior loose it's synergy. The pet procs your out of globals, add DoTs for you to use and buff you while on your side, you buff your pet increasing it's damage and enraging it. Obviously, the pet damage feels very low, but it's a support spec. Don't expect the pet to outdps a full fledged DPS pet.
    Mmm, understood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    I think if they do multiple pets like they were planning, then they could utilize pet switching to help out the soul quite a bit!

    Tanky pet - I propose a bear!
    DPS pet - the current one works great
    Sounds nice. I'd like the cat to have a 4th ability too. Maybe a cleave would be nice.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    [*]Beastmaster: There are a host of QoL issues when it comes to this soul that are on the list to be addressed such as target switching, reliance upon bleeds, ability management, and access to only one pet while all other pet classes have three options.

    Of that list, the pet options is probably the only one that won't happen since that requires a ton of art time to model and animate. That doesn't mean that I won't champion for it though!
    Let's recall that.

    The chances of getting big pet changes are unlikely. So it's best to focus on the current pet, and the warrior itself, then to spitball other pet ideas.

    A simple toggle can make the pet go from dps to tanky, we used to have one, in there. Honestly I'm fine with the one pet, It's the empty 4rth ability bothers me far more. Not sure what to put there. Maybe an AoE dot.
    Last edited by Repster; 01-31-2014 at 12:51 PM.
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    Ascendant Killian26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    I think if they do multiple pets like they were planning, then they could utilize pet switching to help out the soul quite a bit!

    Tanky pet - I propose a bear!
    DPS pet - the current one works great
    Supportive pet - has some 5 man heals, some dps, maybe some single target heals too. I'm thinking a Hawk. No one has a bird as a pet yet! and it'd fit with theme of beastmaster. Could see it flying around to different party members healing them or cleansing them Would be a great way to give BM a cleanse since archon has one.
    We don't need more pets. WTF is this obsession with different pets I swear.

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    - Bring back Protective Companion - A toggle that significantly reduces the pet's damage but increases it's threat and damage reduction. Simple thing but makes the soul a much more effective soloist (and a darned sight less work than making a tanking pet from scratch).

    - Perhaps dial down the DoT emphasis a tad? Leave a few select bleeds in there, sure, but on the whole greater emphasis on direct damage and interaction with the pet. With the proposed Reaver changes it looks like that'll be the real DoT damage specialist anyways.

    - The cat has a 4th empty ability slot. Fill it with something - perhaps a debuff of some kind to emphasise the Support angle some more (I'm thinking it's own analog of Lethal Poison personally). Also make it's existing abilities a bit less generic: Bite could do additional damage per bleed and Claw Swipe could just be.... well better, heh.

    - It's the only Support soul without the increased phys/non-phys damage taken debuffs. Perhaps there's room to get those in there somewhere.
    Last edited by Kedon; 01-31-2014 at 04:18 PM.

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    Ascendant Killian26's Avatar
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    Messy wounds - change to passive buff
    Loyalty - refunctioned to energy buff similar to living energy(wont stack)
    Summoner greater pet - cast time reduced by 50%
    Flesh rip - refunctioned to proc when the warrior critically hits
    Primal lucidity - base damage increase by 15%, cast time reduction removed.
    Call of the forest - increase to 10%
    Command to recover - added effect, upon use also places a shield worth 5% of the party or raid members maximum health on them.

    Guardianship - increase to 10 members instead of 5
    Call of kinship - refunctioned to increase healing received by 2% after a finisher

    fury unleashed - passive buff
    Primal fury - increases both companion and the warriors crit chance by 6% at 3/3
    1. If Messy Wounds becomes a passive they're gonna have to rework the 4piece. I'm fine with that personally but I think there's another option out there.
    2. Flesh Rip just needs to be re purposed period. If anything Flesh Rip, in it's DoT and reactive form, needs to go away entirely. It's a prime candidate to move "Call of Blood" to and free up the 54 point root for something more niche.
    3. I agree that Lucidity and Forest should be combined. I give two ****s if Archon has them seperated; that doesn't mean we should as well. Archon also has Power Drain and other unique abilities; does that mean we should get them as well?
    4. Command to Recover is fine as is tbh and there really isn't a need to add anything to it.
    5. I personally think all healing should be stripped from BM. The community needs to decide what niche they want BM to fill instead of this everything ********. My vote is DPS/ Support, not Heal/Support.

    -BM needs the equivalent of Ashen and Crumbling without the duration.
    -It doesn't need anymore ranged DC abilities as it can perform its' primary task from range (not aimed at you Nefy).
    -Cutting Slash and Twin Cuts are all the DoTs needed. If you get rid of twin cuts then Tearing Slash and Strike to Maim will suffice. Flesh Rip just needs to go and VO shouldn't be tied to the pet either. Bottom line is BM doesn't need all those damn DoTs.
    -Cunning Ruse is a buff plaed on the warrior. The percentage gain to Brutal and Viscious Blow should also be a buff placed on the warrior to help target switching. The amount of DoTs on the target can still be what determines VO's strength though.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple superhbman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repster View Post
    The chances of getting big pet changes are unlikely. So it's best to focus on the current pet, and the warrior itself, then to spitball other pet ideas.
    Would be nice though, I think. But i'd like a response from the higher-ups regarding their vision about the Beastmaster.

    As for the actual pets, we could always use current in-game models for them, as a placeholder at least until prettier pets are made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedon View Post
    - It's the only Support soul without the increased phys/non-phys damage taken debuffs. Perhaps there's room to get those in there somewhere.
    Yes please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Killian26 View Post
    1. If Messy Wounds becomes a passive they're gonna have to rework the 4piece. I'm fine with that personally but I think there's another option out there.
    Maybe make it function like the Assassin's Expose Weakness. Give it a shorter cooldown to facilitate target switching (for comparison, Expose Weakness is on a 20 second CD), and have a talent or in-built feature to re-cast it on the target using a finisher. This way, Messy Wounds will effectively have a 100% uptime on the same target, have it available for target switching, and finishers refresh the 4 pc bonus as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by superhbman View Post
    Would be nice though, I think. But i'd like a response from the higher-ups regarding their vision about the Beastmaster.

    As for the actual pets, we could always use current in-game models for them, as a placeholder at least until prettier pets are made.



    Yes please!



    Maybe make it function like the Assassin's Expose Weakness. Give it a shorter cooldown to facilitate target switching (for comparison, Expose Weakness is on a 20 second CD), and have a talent or in-built feature to re-cast it on the target using a finisher. This way, Messy Wounds will effectively have a 100% uptime on the same target, have it available for target switching, and finishers refresh the 4 pc bonus as well.
    That could work.

  13. #13
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    Default Disconnects

    The real fundamental problem with beastmaster is that it's a support class that deals VERY poorly with disconnects and forces the warrior into melee. The really simple solution would be to give beastmaster a toggle ability that permits melee attacks to be performed at range and does a relatively small damage reduction to offset this advantage.

    As it stands, beastmaster cannot really operate in a ranged environment. Because damage depends on keeping up all of the bleeds, beastmaster deals with disconnects and having to joust out to avoid effects very poorly. To make matters worse, the dependence on bleeds means that you really cannot effectively pair up beastmaster with a ranged spec like tempest. To top it off, the beastmaster rotation is relatively complicated; which makes jousting to avoid various effects even more difficult. Finally, beastmaster has a horrendous number of buffs, which, combined with summoning a pet, gives beastmaster a ridiculous amount of down time following a death. This leaves the raid without buffs for an extended period of time. In short, the risk of beastmaster down time reducing overall raid effectiveness encourages the beastmaster to play a conservative ranged game. Meanwhile, the abilities all but prohibit this sort of play.

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    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geph View Post
    To top it off, the beastmaster rotation is relatively complicated;
    6 buttons is hard?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geph View Post
    Finally, beastmaster has a horrendous number of buffs, which, combined with summoning a pet, gives beastmaster a ridiculous amount of down time following a death. This leaves the raid without buffs for an extended period of time.
    I agree with this... needs a spell to instantly cast the pet and make all the calls out of global with ~3 seconds cooldown to be able to use them all in one shot, same for bonds. Because to top it off, we have about 4 other buffs to use from other specs...
    Last edited by Snap; 02-04-2014 at 09:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    6 buttons is hard?
    Relatively complicated . Compared to damn near anything else a warrior has? Yeah, it's complicated. Especially when you factor in how screwed you are during bad timing on disconnects.
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