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Thread: Proposed Beastmaster changes

  1. #16
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repster View Post
    Relatively complicated . Compared to damn near anything else a warrior has? Yeah, it's complicated. Especially when you factor in how screwed you are during bad timing on disconnects.
    Oh I see, comparing easy with super easy make it hard.
    Compared to every specs in the game, beastmaster is very easy to play.
    All you have to worry about is Cutting Slash, Tearing Slash and Spotter's call. Everything else is either spam macro, use Brutal Strike for finisher or use one of the few cooldown we have to use. And quite honestly... 21 seconds duration on 2 DoTs it's pretty easy to manage.

    You can't factor disconnects in since you wouldn't be using a beastmaster for high disconnect fights in the first place.
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  2. #17
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    It's not a problem with the Beastmaster's rotation. It's super easy, I don't think it's even 6 buttons. There are several perpetrators at work here.

    1. You're a Support Soul, your primary focus is supporting (Enrage/Command to Attack + Other Commands/Spotters Order if necessary). All of these take 1 GCD (1.5s or 1.0s).

    The Warrior class is so centered around a perfect defined rotation that running a priority system is not necessarily good, this brings it to an issue with support abilities which can happen at any given time rather than a set instance. This effectively pushes rotations forward or backward depending on how many support abilities were used and when.

    2. Your DPS relies far too much on one bleed ability that having it fall off is extremely devastating to your DPS (Cutting Slash). We're not talking about a single DoT falling off, we're talking about 3 DoTs in one. To top it off the ability requires you to be at melee range, any-time an extended disconnect mechanic comes along at an untimely manner, there is a good chance the stacks will fall off (unfriendly with unscripted mechanics). Due to the fact that this one ability is the bulk of your DPS or the sole benefactor for the other abilities, switching targets is also terrible.

    3. Pet control. Back in the days when pets took no damage at all, this would be considered fine, but the bulk of your support abilities and DPS requires your pet to be alive. Being able to control your pet while doing #1 and #2 requires an incredible amount of micro-managing. The Effort to Reward ratio is far too swayed towards Effort with almost no reward.

    4. Purpose is lacking. Beastmaster is a gimmick soul, as much support abilities that it provides none of them will really make a dent to its "effective support". 10 Second Enrage buff that relies far too heavily on "at least" 10 other DPS to make use of it. If you don't have 10 DPS that knows how to line-up cool-downs with raid-buffs, there is no point to running a Beastmaster. Command to Stand Ground is great, but only in certain scenarios (expecting a big hit), this would only save you the one time in a majority of the encounters currently in-game. Everything else is fairly insignificant.

    Now if there was a lot more to #4, then #1, #2 and #3 would be worth it. However, there really isn't. So, we end up in the same scenario of Effort to Reward ratio being off.
    Last edited by Byaku; 02-05-2014 at 04:41 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    It's not a problem with the Beastmaster's rotation. It's super easy, I don't think it's even 6 buttons. There are several perpetrators at work here.
    This is exactly what I said, beastmaster rotation is easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    1. You're a Support Soul, your primary focus is supporting (Enrage/Command to Attack + Other Commands/Spotters Order if necessary). All of these take 1 GCD (1.5s or 1.0s).

    The Warrior class is so centered around a perfect defined rotation that running a priority system is not necessarily good, this brings it to an issue with support abilities which can happen at any given time rather than a set instance. This effectively pushes rotations forward or backward depending on how many support abilities were used and when.
    Which is why you reapply Cutting slash when the 3 second mark tick hit. You have a global spare for those commands. Spotters Order is fairly easy to manage since it's a 30 seconds debuff. I don't see any issues with the current beastmaster rotation even with in global support abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    2. Your DPS relies far too much on one bleed ability that having it fall off is extremely devastating to your DPS (Cutting Slash). We're not talking about a single DoT falling off, we're talking about 3 DoTs in one. To top it off the ability requires you to be at melee range, any-time an extended disconnect mechanic comes along at an untimely manner, there is a good chance the stacks will fall off (unfriendly with unscripted mechanics). Due to the fact that this one ability is the bulk of your DPS or the sole benefactor for the other abilities, switching targets is also terrible.
    Warlock DPS relies way too much on all of it's DoTs, and screwing up the DoTs reset will destroy your DPS.
    Druid DPS relies way too much on not wasting your Fae Mimicry and Resounding Blow being used on the right abilities.
    Stormcaller DPS relies way too much on charge, electrified stacks and tight rotation.
    Tempest DPS relies way too much on not wasting Arc on lesser abilities.
    This can be said about nearly every single spec. Every spec relies on something for their DPS or heals. Warden got 4 stacks of HoT to manage... Cabalist got 3 stacks of Dark water too (Given Cabalist doesn't use it for AoE but still). Beastmaster isn't a special snowflake.
    If you loose your stacks of Cutting Slash as a Beastmaster, then play something else because it is extremely easy to keep Cutting Slash up and use the VERY FEW support abilities to use. Especially with 21 SECONDS duration DoT.
    Plus, the DPS doesn't even drop that dramatically. Reapplying 3 stacks of Cutting Slash doesn't take that long and you'd loose at max 500 DPS from having to reapply your stacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    3. Pet control. Back in the days when pets took no damage at all, this would be considered fine, but the bulk of your support abilities and DPS requires your pet to be alive. Being able to control your pet while doing #1 and #2 requires an incredible amount of micro-managing. The Effort to Reward ratio is far too swayed towards Effort with almost no reward.
    Back in the days? The pet still take no damage at all aside from specific bugged crap like Flood the Halls in Archive of Flesh. If your pet dies in one of the very VERY few fights there is out there, then dont use Beastmaster. Problem solved. The only control you need on your pet is /petattack and /cast ability #1,2 and 3 macroed on all your attacks.
    There is literally NO micro-management to be done with the pet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    4. Purpose is lacking. Beastmaster is a gimmick soul, as much support abilities that it provides none of them will really make a dent to its "effective support". 10 Second Enrage buff that relies far too heavily on "at least" 10 other DPS to make use of it. If you don't have 10 DPS that knows how to line-up cool-downs with raid-buffs, there is no point to running a Beastmaster. Command to Stand Ground is great, but only in certain scenarios (expecting a big hit), this would only save you the one time in a majority of the encounters currently in-game. Everything else is fairly insignificant.
    That's your opinion on it. But the numbers prove otherwise. Having a Beastmaster over a bard in a raid will provide much more DPS overall to everyone as well as a support that can dish out high amount of DPS.
    Now beastmaster VS pyrochon, if it's a non stacked fight with low disconnect, Beastmaster beats pyrochon hands down.
    If it's a stacked fight with low disconnect, it's all depending on which between the Warrior or Mage does better at what they do (DPS or support). Usually it's gonna be pyrochon because warrior DPS is too damn easy while mage got the short end of the stick for DPS.

    Beastmaster isn't lacking any purpose. Beastmaster is actually exactly where it should be in terms of support. The main reason why it isn't needed is because of how mage got screwed in every single DPS souls they have compared to warrior which feels like being a kid in a candy shop with none of the souls underperforming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    Now if there was a lot more to #4, then #1, #2 and #3 would be worth it. However, there really isn't. So, we end up in the same scenario of Effort to Reward ratio being off.
    The effort to reward isn't off at all. It's perfectly spot on.
    The only thing Beastmaster need is Quality of Life fixes such as having Cutting slash getting 20 meter range like Fierce strike and Brutal strike and an ability to be able to target switch quickly. Not easier management, not more DPS, not more support abilities.
    The day they fix mage so they can compete with warrior or tone down warrior DPS, beastmaster will be a much more played spec, especially since they probably will kill archon hybrids like they did with every other hybrid for mages.
    Last edited by Snap; 02-05-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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  4. #19
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    Fun new ability idea I came up with after a comment someone made on the Reaver thread:

    The Beast Within - Transforms the Warrior into a giant version of the Primal Companion for x seconds. Increases damage and crit chance while active and grants tempoary additional abilities.

    Yes it's a kitty-Possession.
    Last edited by Kedon; 02-05-2014 at 08:52 AM.

  5. #20
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    Default Yes please...

    I highly agree that Beastmaster needs a redesign...

    I do mainly PvP, so heres what i have to say about the Beastmaster.

    First off, theres TOO MANY buffs, it takes me 9 global cooldowns before i even can leave spawn after death, and in some cases i might die 5 seconds again after leaving spawn, so then its 9 globals again. It annoys the hell out of me that its so many buffs, and sometimes people bother to purge me and then i have to start wasting 5-9 globals again for buffing up. I feel that half of the buffs needs to be made either Passives or procc on abilities instead. Becouse the "Call" abilities are generally stupid, you need to BUFF yourself in order to get a PROCC from a finisher, why couldnt it just be a passive that proccs of a finisher?

    And survivability is a joke, the one supposedly to be "strong" self-heal you have depends on the amount of bleeds the target has, but even with full stacked bleeds the heal isnt increased that much, it requires 1 mage focus a few seconds and im gone unless heal spammed, and even then its a close call. The Warlord build have far higher survival, and both higher sustain and burst dps then Beastmaster. But some might say the purpose is not damage of Beastmaster wich is a support soul, but neither the buffs or heals are reliable... So in reality we got nothing in particular to come with apart from run speed to the raid, and i can bet that can be purged too, havnt really checked....

    The pet is weak, even with full talents the damage is does is minimal and it dies in 3 globals, i have no ability pet heal like the ranger has either, so i just have to pray someone heals me so the pet gains some passive heals, or that someone magically heals the pet (wich never happends).

    So, all in all. Beastmaster is a target dummy running around in crazy speed and putting minor bleeds on people tickling their feet, heals that doesnt even outheal a single DOT, and a pet that doesnt have the option "focus target", so i have to press an additional button to get the pet to switch target along with all the 500 skills that BM already have.... and when target switched the pet runs the wierdest routes and slow as hell so by the time hes up to the target i told him to attack hes either dead or i died, or i switched target again and repeats the same route.

    I really love the concept of Beastmaster, but it is not even close to competetive or helpful.

  6. #21
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snusdosan View Post
    snip
    Beastmaster isn't meant for PvP...
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  7. #22
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    I honestly wish Beastmasters used a bow instead of melee attacks. Their damage is so low and being in the "thick of it" with no armor is suicide.
    Last edited by Talathion; 02-05-2014 at 02:26 PM.

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Stuff that I don't know WTF I'm talking about
    No rotation, priority system, or CD block in this game is hard. Please don't try to make yourself feel better because you play a Mage whose entire rotation is spamming a filler ability and then rotating xyz CD. Both styles of play have their gimmicks that make them "difficult" and it's clear that you don't play enough of the warrior class to understand them so I won't bother.

    Letting cutting fall off will hurt your DPS more than you think. You say it only takes one GCD to reapply but what you fail to realize is that your primary role is to, ya know, support and there is no rotation for those abilities. As an example; you are trying to refresh CS at 1s left and an instance comes up that you need to use a support ability; CD falls off and now you spend 3GCDs getting it back up and that's not counting possibly taking more because of support requirements, DCs, etc. Fact is that BM requires more GCDs to cover its' DPS role and that doesn't leave many GCDs to actually support. The issue is lessened a bit in the 1s GCD but it comes at a decent DPS loss overall. Harbchon, Pyrochon, and Bard all have an abundance of GCDs to actually support with little to no loss in DPS (more the case for Archon because Bard isn't a DPS support.

    Stop comparing DPS souls to support souls. Byaku has no issue with a certain ability being the majority of a classes issue; his concern is how it fits into the mechanics of the soul. If WL didn't have three ways to refresh DoTs on its' target then you might have a leg to stand on, but as it stands your attempt to go that route just makes you look like an idiot. The fact that you think BM is a replacement for Bard shows your lack of understanding of our situation and you've been relegated to a troll who has no clue...bravo.

  9. #24
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    Im in casual guild with little raiding going on,and in t2 we cant find a use for BM at all.BreakerX-a lot of target switching,the only time bm can really dps is second and 3rd burn phase.Brothers-mech,harbchons for cleaving buggs for the win.Eggtenders-pyro for debuffing eggs.Proteus-blademark harbchon (so much target switching there is never more like 15,max 20 sec on 1 target).Varden looks perfect at least-1target!But running in and out all the time is not really heathy for maintaining dots if you are mele(acually,we use bm on this 1,becase our warrior tank hates dps in general and its more beneficial for raid to put him in bm;-).

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killian26 View Post
    Stuff that I don't know WTF I'm talking about.
    I play beastmaster in raids and it's so easy I almost fall asleep on the job.
    Stop over exaggerating everything. You only need to reapply cutting slash once every 18 seconds. And if you are so bad that you loose your stacks, then reapply once every 15 seconds and stop crying.
    Beastmaster is very easy. As easy as bard or archon. In fact, I find beastmaster to be easier so long as the fight doesn't require me to disconnect too much.
    Beastmaster got no cast and no channel, no travel time, it's all instant. If you can't reapply a cutting slash, then I'm sorry but you will suck at every specs in the game.
    All you have to worry about in BM is reapplying 2 DoTs and a debuff. Using globals (Like bard and archon do) to apply supportive ability doesn't break anything to the "rotation" of beastmaster.
    When you don't reapply the 3 debuffs, all you do is roll your face on the filler macro or brutal strike until you need to use a support CD. No rotation? It makes it even easier since you don't have to worry about using that global to cast a support ability.
    And if you can't manage to use a support ability and reapply cutting slash on a 3 seconds window... Buy yourself a computer that doesn't lag... or a brain that doesn't lag.
    Last edited by Snap; 02-06-2014 at 09:44 AM.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    I play beastmaster in raids and it's so easy I almost fall asleep on the job.
    Stop over exaggerating everything. You only need to reapply cutting slash once every 18 seconds. And if you are so bad that you loose your stacks, then reapply once every 15 seconds and stop crying.
    Beastmaster is very easy. As easy as bard or archon. In fact, I find beastmaster to be easier so long as the fight doesn't require me to disconnect too much.
    Beastmaster got no cast and no channel, no travel time, it's all instant. If you can't reapply a cutting slash, then I'm sorry but you will suck at every specs in the game.
    All you have to worry about in BM is reapplying 2 DoTs and a debuff. Using globals (Like bard and archon do) to apply supportive ability doesn't break anything to the "rotation" of beastmaster.
    When you don't reapply the 3 debuffs, all you do is roll your face on the filler macro or brutal strike until you need to use a support CD. No rotation? It makes it even easier since you don't have to worry about using that global to cast a support ability.
    And if you can't manage to use a support ability and reapply cutting slash on a 3 seconds window... Buy yourself a computer that doesn't lag... or a brain that doesn't lag.
    can you list your parses on breaker twins proteus thraxx pls?

  12. #27
    Rift Disciple superhbman's Avatar
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    Not ready to let this go yet. Would like more experienced players to be more active, because I myself aren't one of those.

    Beastmaster compared to Archon and Bard
    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    4. Purpose is lacking. Beastmaster is a gimmick soul, as much support abilities that it provides none of them will really make a dent to its "effective support".
    I want to try to list down what the Beastmaster as a support class has compared to Archon and Bard.

    What the Beastmaster has:

    1. Easy to manage buffs. Compared to Archons and Bard, the BM's buff uptime management is very easy. Bonds are toggles with infinite time. All Calls are refreshed simultaneously simply by using a finisher, and the BM has at least 1 ranged builder and finisher, so Calls will be active as long as the BM has a hostile target. Call buffs lasts 10 seconds longer than the Archon and Bard equivalents (30 seconds as opposed to 20 seconds).

    2. Enrage, which stacks with everything else (as far as I know). Granted, it's no double Lava Field, but as with number 1, easy to manage as well. Enrage buffs everyone compared to Lava Field and Orchestra of the Planes which are ground AoE spells, though this usually is a non-issue, I guess.

    3. GCD-speed 20m purge.


    What the Beastmaster doesn't have:

    1. Some support ability other than essential buffs and major cooldowns. Archons can actively reduce a target's damage output (Pillaging Stone, Power Drain, Lingering Dust, and Waning Power, though most people don't use them), and GCD-speed single target cleanse and GCD-speed GTAoE cleanse + purge combo. Bards can heal a little, AoE increase damage taken, and AoE mez.

    2. The debuff that increases physical and non-physical damage taken.


    Suggestions:

    Give Beastmaster a minor increased physical damage taken debuff, maybe +3%. To explain, the "major" damage taken debuff is 5% physical and 7% non-physical. There exist and additional 5% non-physical damage taken debuff in certain souls and they both stack (refering to Raid Buff/Debuff Stacking, under "Increased Non-physical Damage Taken 2"). Physical damage taken has no equivalent.
    I was thinking that the debuff is small enough to not be a mandatory buff. Still, if this suggestion is implemented, it would most likely be given to other souls as well as to not give Beastmaster the monopoly of this debuff.

    Command to Advance, increases the movement speed of all group and raid members by 40% for 5 seconds. I minute cooldown. It's duration is increased by Hunt Master to 15 seconds.

    Increase the duration of Enrage to at least 15 seconds to match Lava Field and Orchestra.

    Maybe a debuff to reduce the max HP of an enemy target(s). Maybe stacks.

    Charm pet, to deprive a player of their pet in PvP, I guess. Just throwing it out there.

    Maybe a friendly pull to yank a friendly target to the Beastmaster (as opposed to the Warlord's pulling enemy targets).

    Accepting any suggestion for more niche buffs, debuffs, abilities, etc and critique.


    Less DoTs
    To facilitate target switching and reduce ramp-up time, I was thinking of removing some DoTs and dependency on DoTs. Candidates include Tearing Slash, Flesh Rip, Twin Cuts, Messy Wounds, and Cunning Ruse. Redesign Vicious Blow, Brutal Strike, Vicious Opportunity, maybe making them cap out damage bonus at 3 stacks. Make Cutting Slash ranged as suggested in the OP combined with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    - Replace Primal heal by... Bloodrage (30 seconds Cooldown): For the next 10 seconds, Cutting Slash applies 3 stacks of bleeding instead of 1.
    (maybe make Bloodrage only affect the next Cutting Slash) and the BMs disconnect won't suffer too much either (kinda plays like Nightblade at this point, I guess).


    Regarding Support soul hybrid-ability and the Archon
    I'm wondering what the current opinion regarding Archon is, and what the plan is for Archon. Do the higher-ups like the hybrid-ability of Archons, that is able to obtain all essential buffs by 40 points then pick up a DPS sb-soul. If not, how much of Archon do they want changed? Also, are there any plans for the hybrid-ability of Bard?

    Give us some hard talent point number as a cut-off point of how much hybridisation is intended for the support souls, then we can start working from there. If the Less DoTs suggestion above can be taken into consideration, then the Beastmaster can free up a lot of space to shuffle abilities around and to introduce new abilities.


    Apologies for the gigantic post. Really want to continue the discussion.
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  13. #28
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    Honestly, I don't expect to much out of Beast master until Cleric support is more widely available. Then we have all 4 support souls to look at, compare, contrast, and see what is missing. Maybe Cleric Support Beastmaster works just as well as bard archon?
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefertari View Post
    can you list your parses on breaker twins proteus thraxx pls?
    Breaker - 10,000
    Twins - 16,000
    Proteus - 25,000 (I maximize the burn phase okay?!)
    Thrax - Pet jumped off because it was depressed that I was torturing myself.

    Come at me bro.

    ===
    On a more constructive note (if not said already):

    Twin Cuts: Award 2 AP (will make up for Enrage)

    Also we could use something similar to shadow's dread from Reaver that applies all dots (add a caveat if you must, with the charge).
    Either all dots, but only one stack of CS or 3 stacks of CS + Twin Cuts; something that can get us 5 Dots up and running right away.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 02-26-2014 at 08:51 AM.

  15. #30
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    Just the 3 stacks of cutting would be enough honestly. Charge in with 3 stacks of cutting, twin, boom, your at 5.

    And with the suggestion for 2 AP off Twin, which I like, you drop a tearing slash, and you've got a spare dot right there. 2 if you Crit at some point.

    Cutting slash is so damn important to BM that the 3 GCD you need to build is is painful every time... Especially when the encounter is designed with an immune phase where there's a good chance it's forced and not just a play mistake.

    Make it take messy's wounds spot. Throw in another 20% damage increase split all over the place to cover the loss of messy wounds. It's an overall drop, but eh, QoL and target switching is worth it. Hmmm, maybe tearing slash, and having messy wounds just changed somehow since it's a major part of target switching problems as well as building up dots.

    Guadianship and tutelage can be the damage debuffs were' missing, and swap call of kinship for call of blood. Boom, 48BM becomes much better. Going any further looks worse... Fury unleashed is pretty tempting though... Hmmm, 48 for most of the support and semi hybrid potential, 61 for some extra support and raw DPS 50% of the time. 's not to bad of a concept.

    Blarg. To many things that probably have been said multiple times already.
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