Upcoming Warrior Changes

[the_real_seebs]

I'll disagree that this [players feeling compelled to attack tanks] shouldn't be the case. The core function of a tank is to absorb and mitigate damage while protecting the rest of the party. So, the question is, how do we get people to want to attack tanks instead of just going for the healer first?

(Antecedent added for clarity.)

A couple of thoughts:
CoH tank taunts had a fascinating side-effect. In addition to their threat boost, they applied a temporary range debuff, I think it was 75%. So they were not only able to compel NPCs to attack them, but they were able to compel attackers to approach them some, in effect.

Some tabletop games have added "taunt" mechanics of one sort or another. The basic premise: You suffer penalties if you are not attacking the person who taunted you. 4e D&D, I think it was "-2 to hit on any attack which does not include the person who marked you as a target", which is roughly a 10% miss chance. I think someone else mentioned a debuff that gives you a significant (say, 50%) damage-dealt debuff against everyone but whoever taunted you.

And you know what? Mechanics like that might be super interesting to have in the soul trees, because if there were mechanics which made it actually a good idea to attack a given target, not merely "compel the AI", then mobs could use them too. Consider the fight mechanics you could get if a boss had a tank pet who could taunt players and leave them debuffed if they were not attacking the tank pet...

[WhozDat]

(Antecedent added for clarity.)

A couple of thoughts:
CoH tank taunts had a fascinating side-effect. In addition to their threat boost, they applied a temporary range debuff, I think it was 75%. So they were not only able to compel NPCs to attack them, but they were able to compel attackers to approach them some, in effect.
.

Coh also had a vibrant and very effective and viable pre-emptive defense set-up with a number of viable melee classes. To compound this, CoH tanks also were not effective, no one ran them. You never really saw SA brutes or tanks. They ran DPS hybrids, ala SS brutes/FB Tanks, along with a plethora of other things that made this range debuff managable, including abnormally ranged snipes.

As much as I was a fan of City of Heroes and it's pvp (Best pvp game I have played since daoc), I'ld question the effectiveness of creating a tank mechanic that solely made dps more difficult, as there's not enough ways, as it stands, to counter healing in it's current form.

[Ranik]

"One of our key issues is hybridization and skill placement"

"Everything is on the table except for skill placement"

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/up...lenhaal-no.gif

[Sorano]

Makes sense. The whole "sacrifice your mitigation to increase your mitigation" deal was always a bit awkward. The Accords would just be offensive, mobility etc buffs rather than for it's core tank stats. Leaving pacts to ne more freely spent to fuel it's cooldowns or heavy hitting abilities (pacts should definitiely remain a central mechanic to the soul however!).

Yup agree with pacts being offensively based and tied to things like AP and mobility. In regards to Void, I'm assuming it contains too much mitigation for a 0 point ability, if the plan is to normalize mitigation across the tanking souls? If leave it as is, them it will be the go to choice for all warrior tanking builds, but if you nerf it, you hamper hybrids. That's pretty much how it is on live now though. Tempest and Warlord are swapped in, in place of Paladin, not VK. I don't think that will change much in terms of how warriors use tanking builds.

If you are going to normalize mitigation, please make sure you do it by balancing against what clerics and rogue tanks can do. Our CD's are also really something that need to be looked at in terms of the other two callings.

I definitely like the idea of different flavours across the 3 souls. VK for DPS, Paladin for extra mitigation CDs and Reaver for ranged add tanking.

[Repster]

To be honest it's exactly what the community asked for right after SL and going into it. They cried about having to respect every time Atrius changed things, and he took on the policy of no more resets (I'm sure after getting directed to do that).

The community cried about having to completely REBUILD, not simply put soul points back in and switch some keybinds/macros a bit.

A build that you enjoyed on Tuesday was no longer viable on Wednesday. You spend 5 days learning a new spec, starting to get used to it, it gets crushed on the 7th.

Every week. Builds changed, jumped up, jumped down, were made from excellent, to broken, to worthless.

Bug fixes that destroyed the underlining mechanics that had been build ON these bugs.

Massive sweeping changes that caused warriors to be near worthless had you scrambling to figure out what the **** actually worked so you could actually contribute even 70% of what another calling was.

THESE are the causes of the outcries from warriors. Not the need to actually refill our soul trees and bars.

Small changes, at a steady pace? I'm willing to be forced to respec every week. Saves me 16 plat

[Keota]

This is crazy, and wayyyy more then just tweaking current ability's BUT at the same time its not really disrupting current builds either.

here some food for though when it comes to bringing tanks (not tank hybrids) a more valued home in PvP at least. (sorry pvers im not really well versed in where we lack as tanks in PvE).

give us and ability. at say 51 points per tank soul in (could even work in pve somehow) that lets us mimic a a BIG cool down on the person we cast said ability on.

example

[ability name]: casts a buff on the target the gives the warrior a simular cool down to one in the players soul with the largest amount of points.

a tank with a rogue a dps cool down?

a tank with traitorous influence or mana wrench?

a tank with sent mass sheilds?

a tank with healers cov?

designate a cooldown useful in pvp from each soul tree that the tank could mimic as to perform more then just a damage sponge in pvp. to either be ignored or sitting on a objective an entire match.

Crazy I know. COOL but crazy.


Besides that m only suggestion for tanks roles in PvP would be figuring out how they can better serve the team. supporting the team is the most important thing if that means buffs and shields then cool maybe a cool down that increases everyone's HP for a period of time. you can tack said on to current 51, 61 point abilitys.



Just ideas.

[Mortadelas]

Coh also had a vibrant and very effective and viable pre-emptive defense set-up with a number of viable melee classes. To compound this, CoH tanks also were not effective, no one ran them. You never really saw SA brutes or tanks. They ran DPS hybrids, ala SS brutes/FB Tanks, along with a plethora of other things that made this range debuff managable, including abnormally ranged snipes.

As much as I was a fan of City of Heroes and it's pvp (Best pvp game I have played since daoc), I'ld question the effectiveness of creating a tank mechanic that solely made dps more difficult, as there's not enough ways, as it stands, to counter healing in it's current form.

What if...we nerfed pvp healing after allowing Tanks to reduse dmg done by players to targets other than themselves? Could everyone from dps to tank to healer be actually equal?

[Kajib]

What?....This person called Vladd, he speaks about having good time.
What does he knows about good time in PvP?...

Having an ability that reduce Gcd to 1 sec but it's completely worthless?even for it's main soul it's a disaster.

Being a genuine 1.5 Gcd profession but only to find out most of the time your truly Gcd is 2.5 due to the poor design of power management mechanics?.

100% chance of getting dominated by weaklings Assassins,Nightblades and Doms just because they can suck the power out of your blood?.

Vladd i sincerely tell you this and i won't repeat again, "I have yet to see a warrior having a good time apart from the broken Tempest, a magic soul that's obviously out of control and doesn't belong to the warrior profession".

Any PvP warrior with a brain is smart enough to understand it's overall quality and playing style has dropped drastically, Thanks to Ailion.

[Kronos v]

That's different. Atrius consistently ****ed us up from release until he was released with having to learn a new spec every week, hence the roller coaster; soul resets aren't the same thing as relearning class mechanics. We're far more stable and balanced, across the spectrum, than we used to be, but we still need a few things changed for our overall health. Maybe Vladd has plans to shift stuff in 3.0 and that's why he's holding off, I dunno. Our tank souls are more affected by this than our DPS souls and unless Vladd changes some of that we're never going to see viable hybrids for them.

this, unfortunately.

we have three tank souls, and every ability worth having is in the top half of one of the three. this is deliberately done to keep tank/tank hybrids from becoming stupidly OP in pve. the drawback is that our tank souls are near useless for anything other than pve tanking without extreme points expenditure into the tank soul.
clerics and rogues have one tank soul, with good abilities spread more evenly throughout the soul. the rogue soul is particularly is known for having great benefits for low points.

[dday]

What?....This person called Vladd, he speaks about having good time.
What does he knows about good time in PvP?...

Having an ability that reduce Gcd to 1 sec but it's completely worthless?even for it's main soul it's a disaster.

Being a genuine 1.5 Gcd profession but only to find out most of the time your truly Gcd is 2.5 due to the poor design of power management mechanics?.

100% chance of getting dominated by weaklings Assassins,Nightblades and Doms just because they can suck the power out of your blood?.

Vladd i sincerely tell you this and i won't repeat again, "I have yet to see a warrior having a good time apart from the broken Tempest, a magic soul that's obviously out of control and doesn't belong to the warrior profession".

Any PvP warrior with a brain is smart enough to understand it's overall quality and playing style has dropped drastically, Thanks to Ailion.

hey someone who plays both rogue (main) and warrior( former main) that's honest. I might have a heart attack

[WhozDat]

What if...we nerfed pvp healing after allowing Tanks to reduse dmg done by players to targets other than themselves? Could everyone from dps to tank to healer be actually equal?

Problem is they'd have to nerf specific souls. Healing in general, really isn't overpowered, it's defilers and puris that have really sent the healing into non-sense, due to the fact that they're designed to be abnormally strong compared to other healing souls, because defiler and puris don't stack well with other defilers and puris (Link interference and Burnout).

Defilers links have basically made dps require instagib CDs to break through links consistently, and thus sents and puris got buffs and are even stronger then before, thus dps got even more dps stuff. Whether there is a simple fix after defiler has destroyed the meta of the game to the degree it is, is not likely.

hey someone who plays both rogue (main) and warrior( former main) that's honest. I might have a heart attack

I'm still enjoying my warrior a lot more then my rogue. Bite me.

[dday]

Problem is they'd have to nerf specific souls. Healing in general, really isn't overpowered, it's defilers and puris that have really sent the healing into non-sense, due to the fact that they're designed to be abnormally strong compared to other healing souls, because defiler and puris don't stack well with other defilers and puris (Link interference and Burnout).

Defilers links have basically made dps require instagib CDs to break through links consistently, and thus sents and puris got buffs and are even stronger then before, thus dps got even more dps stuff. Whether there is a simple fix after defiler has destroyed the meta of the game to the degree it is, is not likely.



I'm still enjoying my warrior a lot more then my rogue. Bite me.

yea what tempest? sick soul 2 button face roll range burst

or even more face roll WL?

you realize you are the only person on earth who thinks in any Melee way warrior is better than rogue who plays both. and the person i quoted was a very good warrior who now only plays rogue

[WhozDat]

yea what tempest? sick soul 2 button face roll range burst

or even more face roll WL?

you realize you are the only person on earth who thinks in any way warrior is better than rogue who plays both. and the person i quoted was a very good warrior who now only plays rogue

I never said better. I said I enjoy warrior more.

[dday]

I never said better. I said I enjoy warrior more.

lets leave our banter out of this thread

[WhozDat]

I never said better. I said I enjoy warrior more.

I guess I did ask for that though. Still, your bark is worse then your bite.