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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Upcoming Warrior Changes

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    Yeah, I tried to move it, but couldn't. The website popped up a message saying something about no editing past 5 minutes. Apologies.

  2. #392
    Champion of Telara Leif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    I'll disagree that this shouldn't be the case. The core function of a tank is to absorb and mitigate damage while protecting the rest of the party. So, the question is, how do we get people to want to attack tanks instead of just going for the healer first?
    Back at the start of Storm Legion, Void Knight was very effective because they not only hit hard as hell for a tank due to Destructive Forces, but because Rift Summon and Void Summon could absolutely wreck the opposing teams positioning. Survivability with non-reduced Touch of Life and the original Fusion of Flesh was also crazy, and you felt like an actual tank class because of it.

    Altering positioning, AoE debuffing, distracts, etc., that's the kind of thing that makes tank's useful when they don't do a lot of damage but are survivable enough that people don't bother attacking them.

    But the last I had seen, too many damage and survivability nerfs had been put in and the PVP meta game had swung too far in favor of dps for that very tanky niche stuff to matter. That may be an outdated perspective by now, though it seems to be how Rift PVP always trended.

    Oh, and if VK's could mana drain again, they'd probably be a prime target for dps. Just sayin'.
    Last edited by Leif; 01-07-2014 at 01:10 PM.
    Waiting for Wildstar...

  3. #393
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    another suggestion for making tanks a threat...

    apply the tanks damage to the maximum hit points, instead of the hit point pool. with the hit points lost not regained until either the tank or the target dies.
    if the tank is ignored, eventually the targets hit points will drop low enough where it can be easily one shotted by any dps.

    this could be an added effect on existing abilities that does not function in pve, and could be applied to only specific tank abilities, or the damage applied to max hit points scaled to points spent in the tank soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    The cleansing would only be a huge issue...
    Which is every single PvE encounter that has cleanses. Kyzan, Crucia, Regulos, Salvarola, Breaker X1. Any additional debuffs added to a raid that -can- be cleansed potentially put an extra GCD for healers trying to cleanse this unless they're doing it by casting at mouseover. We can argue all day that they should be targeting individuals to cleanse directly, but we all know plenty of healers rely upon cleanse macros. It also adds in the ability to soak up AoE cleanses as they're smart targeted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    If the pacts are going to be changed towards offensive purposes then Vacuum would limit the amount of cool-down tools you can have for a different purpose (raid-wise purpose). At the moment the effects are aimed more at PVP than it does PVE, because Tanks almost serve no role in PVP, and their position in PVE is not as bad as people make it out to be (I'm still confused about this).
    I didn't say it would lower mitigation. I said it would lower your effective health pool, which it certainly does. Using pacts in this way is the same as us using them currently (currently we remove mitigation through the accords, this would remove HP, both result in the same lower effective health).

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    I merely addressed the Void Knight threat issue by providing it with a small tool, it's in no shape final, thus I was looking for more ideas. The suction effect generates significant threat, of course it's not a large proximity that would just make us Clerics.
    That's exactly why I want tools for threat beyond just hitting the enemies as warriors. Allow us to intercept threat from specific members of a raid, allow us to intercept large amounts of damage, or even allow our threat to emanate from selected party members. All of this should be a managed style ability and not a toggle, make us work to be as effective at ranged threat as we could be and allow those not willing to work to still have the same threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    The ability isn't meant to be on a rotation nor is it meant to be used on all encounters, it has its purpose.
    I know you mentioned numbers are not final, but in this current state they are way over the top not to be used on rotation. More healing from Paladin and free heals from Reaver are the biggest offender there. Why would there be any argument to not run these? They would need to have a much bigger negative effect on the warrior. This also lends to the arguement to not have them cleansed, as you could just always have someone (like a purifier who can remove all stacks in one global cool down) cleanse the tank to keep him/her from having the bad effects for too long.

    The Void Knight one would be always used on any encounter with stuns or snares. I'd rather just see VK's AoE cleanse grow in range, and retain the same cool down it has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    I don't have any interest in comparing different Callings, while it helps with balancing, it limits imagination and creativity. If we keep focusing on what other Callings can do and try to imitate similar elements, we'd all end up playing the same thing.
    This is where you've both missed my point and where I disagree with the first part of your statement. Tanking should, at all times, have all the tanking souls balanced regardless of class. Clerics, rogues and warriors should take around the same amount of damage in any encounter. What separates us should be our utility, thus eliminating your fear of playing the same thing. We all bring different things to the table, but one class should never be able to "out tank" another because they have access to a plethora of cool downs that other classes do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    I don't expect to be able to bring a Warrior tank into every single encounter, I expect to be able to do the encounter, but if there is a better option then sure, it is entirely up to the raid strategy, if everything was the same it'd be incredibly boring.
    I expect all tank classes to be able to tank all encounters. I expect at least a few encounters to be made more easy for using a certain class to tank.

    Right now, I really only feel that Proteus is the main offender in our current line up of raid bosses. All the other encounters can be tanked by a warrior or rogue (in some cases like Inyr we see rogues able to solo tank, but warriors can certainly two tank).

    There should be reasons for guilds to say "Use ____ tank on this fight". But there should never be a time where a guild goes "We cannot do this encounter because we do not have a geared ____ tank".

    I really appreciate what you're trying to do with your suggestion, and by no means feel that I'm completely shooting you down. I'm simply trying to magnify issues that I see within the suggestion, not saying they're horrible. Also I didn't comment on your PvP suggestions because I don't feel I have enough weight in PvP to really be constructive. Though, if your toggles effects were PvP only (like the charges have effects in PvP only) I would have no issues with them.
    Last edited by Techie Will; 01-07-2014 at 01:57 PM.


  5.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Honest and frank question. There have been dozens, hundreds, possibly even thousands of suggestions to make tanks a more viable role, however, we rarely get more then silence, sometimes a no to the more absurd suggestions.

    How far are the developers willing to alter the trees to accommodate tanks becoming a role in warfronts? How much are they willing to alter the pvp status quo?

    Is it safe to assume that we will be attempting to attach small fixes onto the trees as they exist now to create viability? Or will we be going the full yard including tweaks and fixes by pushing powers around in the trees?

    I'ld love to just whole-heartedly throw random suggestions out there, but we do need some sort of rule set to work within, a ballpark to throw in, for the more literal minded.
    You ask honest and frank questions, I'll give you an honest and frank answer.

    The only thing that is off the table when it comes to offering up any suggestions (and this is across the board, not just for PVP) is messing around with the soul tree. If the suggestion starts off with "move this down/up" then it is almost instantly declined. Abilities can be re-purposed and altered but moving from their spot in the tree is almost always going to be a no-go.

    When an ability is added/removed/moved in the soul tree, it means soul resets. These are highly disruptive to the player base and as such, we will only do it whenever there are no other options. People invest a lot of time into getting their specs the way they like it as well as their hotbars and macros. I'd just rather have you guys focus on having a good time playing the game rather than setting up your characters again... and again... and again. Also, resets present a barrier to entry for players that are picking up the game again or those that are prone to being away for long periods of time like folks in the military.

    The additional perimeter to consider is that anything that is added for PVP should not affect PVE. I consider this as a given but doesn't hurt to state it anyway.

    So, I hope this answers your questions and gives all of you a frame of mind to work within when it comes to brainstorming ideas for improvements to any calling. =)

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    snip
    More then I was hoping for, but it's an answer at least. My only worry being is if you make tank souls dependent on taunt, without moving around the taunt, you essentially strengthen hybrids, while doing nothing about tanks in general.

    Scaling mechanics could work aswell, as in x for y points in soul.

    However my second question would be: Does a tank have to be singularly disruptive to dps?

    Due to defiler currently being out of control, and the lackluster matchmaking, making tanks singularly disruptive to DPS is likely a bad idea, as it creates a larger gap between well made teams, and those that are not.

    The first suggestion, I believe Zoar said it at one time or another, was to make Taunts act like a castable debuff version of Reflective presence, where the casters next 3 casts/actions (Damage, healing or buffs) were applied to the warrior.

    Yes, use it on a healer, and the healer heals the enemy tank. Use it on the enemy defiler, and he will link the enemy tank.

    My only question would be how to apply that to scaling.
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  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    You ask honest and frank questions, I'll give you an honest and frank answer.

    The only thing that is off the table when it comes to offering up any suggestions (and this is across the board, not just for PVP) is messing around with the soul tree. If the suggestion starts off with "move this down/up" then it is almost instantly declined. Abilities can be re-purposed and altered but moving from their spot in the tree is almost always going to be a no-go.

    When an ability is added/removed/moved in the soul tree, it means soul resets. These are highly disruptive to the player base and as such, we will only do it whenever there are no other options. People invest a lot of time into getting their specs the way they like it as well as their hotbars and macros. I'd just rather have you guys focus on having a good time playing the game rather than setting up your characters again... and again... and again. Also, resets present a barrier to entry for players that are picking up the game again or those that are prone to being away for long periods of time like folks in the military.

    The additional perimeter to consider is that anything that is added for PVP should not affect PVE. I consider this as a given but doesn't hurt to state it anyway.

    So, I hope this answers your questions and gives all of you a frame of mind to work within when it comes to brainstorming ideas for improvements to any calling. =)
    I didn't mind the soul tree resets, but I remember the amazing number of complaints they generated, so I see the point. Thanks for the specific answer. I always like it when we get told not just what the policy is, but why it is the policy.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    You ask honest and frank questions, I'll give you an honest and frank answer.

    The only thing that is off the table when it comes to offering up any suggestions (and this is across the board, not just for PVP) is messing around with the soul tree. If the suggestion starts off with "move this down/up" then it is almost instantly declined. Abilities can be re-purposed and altered but moving from their spot in the tree is almost always going to be a no-go.

    When an ability is added/removed/moved in the soul tree, it means soul resets. These are highly disruptive to the player base and as such, we will only do it whenever there are no other options. People invest a lot of time into getting their specs the way they like it as well as their hotbars and macros. I'd just rather have you guys focus on having a good time playing the game rather than setting up your characters again... and again... and again. Also, resets present a barrier to entry for players that are picking up the game again or those that are prone to being away for long periods of time like folks in the military.

    The additional perimeter to consider is that anything that is added for PVP should not affect PVE. I consider this as a given but doesn't hurt to state it anyway.

    So, I hope this answers your questions and gives all of you a frame of mind to work within when it comes to brainstorming ideas for improvements to any calling. =)
    I see where you're coming from but in all honesty the soul resets weren't that bad; they're made even less of an issue now that you can dump all your points into a spec with the click of a button. People would complain if you gave them $100, Vladd, just because you didn't give them $101...see my point? We have abilities in our trees that need to be shifted around for the health of the calling; and instantly declining it just because some *******es complain that they have to take five minutes to respec and set their hot bars is short sighted on your part IMO.
    Last edited by Killian26; 01-07-2014 at 03:01 PM.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    More then I was hoping for, but it's an answer at least. My only worry being is if you make tank souls dependent on taunt, without moving around the taunt, you essentially strengthen hybrids, while doing nothing about tanks in general.

    Scaling mechanics could work aswell, as in x for y points in soul.

    However my second question would be: Does a tank have to be singularly disruptive to dps?

    Due to defiler currently being out of control, and the lackluster matchmaking, making tanks singularly disruptive to DPS is likely a bad idea, as it creates a larger gap between well made teams, and those that are not.

    The first suggestion, I believe Zoar said it at one time or another, was to make Taunts act like a castable debuff version of Reflective presence, where the casters next 3 casts/actions (Damage, healing or buffs) were applied to the warrior.

    Yes, use it on a healer, and the healer heals the enemy tank. Use it on the enemy defiler, and he will link the enemy tank.

    My only question would be how to apply that to scaling.
    scale it to points spent in the tank tree increases the number of actions applied to the tank. perhaps every ten points (or part there of) spent in a tank soul applies 1 action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  10. #400
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    @vladd so if something is broken or flat out bad we are just going to leave it so people don't have to respec? no offense but that sounds pretty lame. kinda makes sense why warrior has been such trash since sl its pretty stubborn not to change things for something as stupid as respeccing. its pretty frustrating hearing you use that as an excuse when ive dropped hundreds of dollars into this game

    idk but if i was a dev i would work on getting the calling right and fun again more than worrying about people getting a free respec and having to think for a few minutes

  11. #401
    Champion of Telara Geopenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    You ask honest and frank questions, I'll give you an honest and frank answer.

    The only thing that is off the table when it comes to offering up any suggestions (and this is across the board, not just for PVP) is messing around with the soul tree. If the suggestion starts off with "move this down/up" then it is almost instantly declined. Abilities can be re-purposed and altered but moving from their spot in the tree is almost always going to be a no-go.

    When an ability is added/removed/moved in the soul tree, it means soul resets. These are highly disruptive to the player base and as such, we will only do it whenever there are no other options. People invest a lot of time into getting their specs the way they like it as well as their hotbars and macros. I'd just rather have you guys focus on having a good time playing the game rather than setting up your characters again... and again... and again. Also, resets present a barrier to entry for players that are picking up the game again or those that are prone to being away for long periods of time like folks in the military.

    The additional perimeter to consider is that anything that is added for PVP should not affect PVE. I consider this as a given but doesn't hurt to state it anyway.

    So, I hope this answers your questions and gives all of you a frame of mind to work within when it comes to brainstorming ideas for improvements to any calling. =)

    I am trying to re-learn how to play warrior after just 4 months away and can say am very disappointed. Paragon seems okay, but I do not want to play tempest. I very much liked my RB build when I left and do not see anyone running it or anything close. Champ was nice back in 2012.


    What I want most of all is stability. When I left it was due to the constant changes in the warrior souls (and usually pvp driven).
    Beware the Penguin...

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    @vladd so if something is broken or flat out bad we are just going to leave it so people don't have to respec? no offense but that sounds pretty lame. kinda makes sense why warrior has been such trash since sl its pretty stubborn not to change things for something as stupid as respeccing. its pretty frustrating hearing you use that as an excuse when ive dropped hundreds of dollars into this game

    idk but if i was a dev i would work on getting the calling right and fun again more than worrying about people getting a free respec and having to think for a few minutes
    To be honest it's exactly what the community asked for right after SL and going into it. They cried about having to respect every time Atrius changed things, and he took on the policy of no more resets (I'm sure after getting directed to do that).


  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geopenguin View Post
    I am trying to re-learn how to play warrior after just 4 months away and can say am very disappointed. Paragon seems okay, but I do not want to play tempest. I very much liked my RB build when I left and do not see anyone running it or anything close. Champ was nice back in 2012.


    What I want most of all is stability. When I left it was due to the constant changes in the warrior souls (and usually pvp driven).
    I love stability, when things are alright. Right now there are several Quality of Life issues that we've been requesting for a long time that need to be addressed.


  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    To be honest it's exactly what the community asked for right after SL and going into it. They cried about having to respect every time Atrius changed things, and he took on the policy of no more resets (I'm sure after getting directed to do that).
    yea hell i hated learning specs every week for raid too but thats atrius's fault for not getting the class right in the first place. you simply cant give up or use not respecing as an excuse. the calling is just flat out boring at this point.

    i much rather have to learn new specs and change points around then play a bad calling

    it really never phased me because i was scared the grass wasnt greener on the other said but with my mage at rank 68 now i realize how horrible warrior is as a whole and thats with knowing warrior like the back of my hand and barely understanding mage
    Last edited by dday; 01-07-2014 at 03:22 PM.

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    To be honest it's exactly what the community asked for right after SL and going into it. They cried about having to respect every time Atrius changed things, and he took on the policy of no more resets (I'm sure after getting directed to do that).
    That's different. Atrius consistently ****ed us up from release until he was released with having to learn a new spec every week, hence the roller coaster; soul resets aren't the same thing as relearning class mechanics. We're far more stable and balanced, across the spectrum, than we used to be, but we still need a few things changed for our overall health. Maybe Vladd has plans to shift stuff in 3.0 and that's why he's holding off, I dunno. Our tank souls are more affected by this than our DPS souls and unless Vladd changes some of that we're never going to see viable hybrids for them.
    Last edited by Killian26; 01-07-2014 at 03:25 PM.

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