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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Upcoming Warrior Changes

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valnak View Post
    Step 2: Introduce debuffs from taunts. 30% reduced damage, must hit the tank 3 times to remove this debuff.
    Some game make taunt better for PvP. In Allods online, taunt turn into debuff for other player. The debuff forces player that taunted to have tank as target and can't change target till they deal enough damage to the tank(i think it's 50% of tank HP) or the debuff time is over. Whichever come first
    If they they switch target while the debuff is stil on (after the 50% damage to the tank), they will deal 50% less damage to player other than tank.

    That taunt really forces people to hit the tank

  2. #377
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    I'll disagree that this shouldn't be the case. The core function of a tank is to absorb and mitigate damage while protecting the rest of the party. So, the question is, how do we get people to want to attack tanks instead of just going for the healer first?

    Honest and frank question. There have been dozens, hundreds, possibly even thousands of suggestions to make tanks a more viable role, however, we rarely get more then silence, sometimes a no to the more absurd suggestions.

    How far are the developers willing to alter the trees to accommodate tanks becoming a role in warfronts? How much are they willing to alter the pvp status quo?

    Is it safe to assume that we will be attempting to attach small fixes onto the trees as they exist now to create viability? Or will we be going the full yard including tweaks and fixes by pushing powers around in the trees?

    I'ld love to just whole-heartedly throw random suggestions out there, but we do need some sort of rule set to work within, a ballpark to throw in, for the more literal minded.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  3. #378
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    Default New player.

    I'm a new player, I hope that was well clarified by the title of this post. I've enjoyed the game tremendously thus far, and I think it brings a great number of unique boons to the Mmorpg market; however, I've encountered several distasteful experiences which I attribute to a lack of pragmatism in character balancing. My particular qualm is with the current state of the mage souls in comparison to others.

    I love mage souls, their play styles are very unique and elegant in design, but they are tremendously lacking in... well,"oomph", for lack of a better word. As things currently stand what the mage class can do, another can do better. These are some things I've noticed while playing.
    • Mages fall off of the damage spectrum when compared to other classes.
    • As healers they can do moderately well, but they risk much more due to their inherent frailty.
    • As buffers(Archons specifically), they have several buffs, but they incur penalties for them, but the buffs themselves(with the exception of a few), are very weak.
    • Mages have several abilities(split among souls), that are used to regain mana; however, I have not found a need to use a single one of those abilities. They are in my opinion, wasting space, because all classes regenerate energy sources at a very high rate.
    • Mage gear has ridiculously low statistics. Clerics receive many of the same stats a mage does(with some differences), but the armor rating is much, much higher. It is really aggravating, to run into a shield of my level, that had more armor than all of my mage gear(and an armor buff from ashen defenses) put together.

    I realize this list isn't very specific, and somewhat incomplete, but I just wanted to drop by and dial in on some of the things I've seen that have really hurt my game experience. The game features innovative content, like it's soul system, but balancing is really hurting the experience. I've found that few people want to play a class for a long time because of it's theatrics, and people usually don't invest in something they won't like for a long time.

    Just my two cents.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    I'll disagree that this shouldn't be the case. The core function of a tank is to absorb and mitigate damage while protecting the rest of the party. So, the question is, how do we get people to want to attack tanks instead of just going for the healer first?
    I think you already have the answer . Give the tank a protection buff like defiler's link, absorb 100% damage from an ally in 15s, can only affect 1 ally at a time, 5s cooldown. A group buff absorb 10% damage from all allies in 20m. Some group shields like purifier. About damage, I disagree with the idea buff the tanks' damage. Instead, give them the ability to reflect damage when block. The damage they deal will depend on the damage of the enemies.

  5. #380
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    Well, there are PvP tanks already in Rift, only they can't take the dmg people want to to throw at them.

    Who here is not taunted when a Domi shows his energy draining face in a WF?
    Who here is not taunted when a Defiler desides that you current target can no longer die?

    So there are taunts in pvp, the ability to make your team unkillable, the other team crap or a combination of the two.

    While Domi and Defiler are not tanks they have range to help them survive. You can't be that hated in melee pvp and not be a tank, you'd get killed during dismount.

  6. #381
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    PALADIN - Holy Sanctuary

    Spoiler!



    VOID KNIGHT - Vacuum

    Spoiler!



    REAVER - Blood Dominion

    Spoiler!


    • Numbers and Effect are not final, this is merely something I thought of on the spot to try and start something.
    • This is only my suggestion and is not something the DEV decided at all, if you have anything you want to add/change/disagree with, then it's on me. Keep in mind, our opinions "may" or "may not" have any weighing on the final product of our Calling at all.

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybirdmcfee View Post
    Mage stuff.
    Wrong section buddy.

  8. #383
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    How about Put Alarcity Back to the way it was and the same for the Tempest variant? Or Just remove the damage reduc from turn the blade?
    A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves. -Lao Tzu

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    PALADIN - Holy Sanctuary

    Spoiler!



    VOID KNIGHT - Vacuum

    Spoiler!



    REAVER - Blood Dominion

    Spoiler!


    • Numbers and Effect are not final, this is merely something I thought of on the spot to try and start something.
    • This is only my suggestion and is not something the DEV decided at all, if you have anything you want to add/change/disagree with, then it's on me. Keep in mind, our opinions "may" or "may not" have any weighing on the final product of our Calling at all.
    The cleansing is a huge issue honestly, especially for PvE. Healers would need to fight through stacks of that stuff to get to what needed to really be cleansed ( look at Regulos for example).

    Secondly you're using pacts while lowering your effective health, something most of us want to get away from completely.

    Last, while the buffs sound good on paper, this does nothing to solve real issues with cool down parity to rogues or ambient threat generation of clerics. If the auras on players generate threat from those players, then maybe, but keeping it on a toggle is a bit easy mode.


  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    The cleansing is a huge issue honestly, especially for PvE. Healers would need to fight through stacks of that stuff to get to what needed to really be cleansed ( look at Regulos for example).
    The cleansing would only be a huge issue if the encounter is centered around cleansing and one of the tanks become mind-controlled in which you would need to cleanse the debuff, that's assuming the mind-controlled tank casts the specified ability. E.g. Crucia.

    PVP-wise if the player gets caught, it is on them, a single-cleanse can help free them some of its load but if the DPS pursues their targets while within the Tank's range (small), they will suffer for it. This emphasizes the importance of having a disengage when building a PVP Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    Secondly you're using pacts while lowering your effective health, something most of us want to get away from completely.
    I made the suggestion after reading the following...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    You and I are on the same page here, Kedon. This is what I'm aiming for with the change.
    If the pacts are going to be changed towards offensive purposes then Vacuum would limit the amount of cool-down tools you can have for a different purpose (raid-wise purpose). At the moment the effects are aimed more at PVP than it does PVE, because Tanks almost serve no role in PVP, and their position in PVE is not as bad as people make it out to be (I'm still confused about this).

    I merely addressed the Void Knight threat issue by providing it with a small tool, it's in no shape final, thus I was looking for more ideas. The suction effect generates significant threat, of course it's not a large proximity that would just make us Clerics.

    The ability isn't meant to be on a rotation nor is it meant to be used on all encounters, it has its purpose.

    For example: Vacuum - Salvarola (Soul Incineration)

    There are many Builds which do not have their own movement speed buffs/combat buffs, often times Anthem of Competence or Bond of Alacrity, and insoles are not enough to deal with emergency situations. There are also people who have started out late in the RIFT progression and don't have as much PA levels as others; thus I decided that an Tank could potentially help with some form of raid movement speed increase during a Tank-Swap mechanic.

    This would be the same for all 3 of the suggested Toggle Abilities. Of course it will raise the difficulty for your tank, because they'd have to find the right timing of when they should be toggling it on and off while also being aware of the Debuff duration. I also feel the debuff duration is a bit too long (PVE Wise), I also feel the Void Knight toggle is not as useful but this could depend entirely on the encounters to come in the future.

    For example: Holy Sanctuary - Crucia (Orbital Strike)

    Off-Tank stacks with group to increase healing (assuming you don't shut down the Orbs). It can simply aid a raid-heal check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    Last, while the buffs sound good on paper, this does nothing to solve real issues with cool down parity to rogues or ambient threat generation of clerics. If the auras on players generate threat from those players, then maybe, but keeping it on a toggle is a bit easy mode.
    I don't have any interest in comparing different Callings, while it helps with balancing, it limits imagination and creativity. If we keep focusing on what other Callings can do and try to imitate similar elements, we'd all end up playing the same thing.

    I don't expect to be able to bring a Warrior tank into every single encounter, I expect to be able to do the encounter, but if there is a better option then sure, it is entirely up to the raid strategy, if everything was the same it'd be incredibly boring.


    Below was my thought process...

    PVP
    - Tanks are not a threat, they need to somehow become one.
    - Tanks lack peeling utility, a couple of real pulls with diminishing returns only. Whereas every build is in possession of some great disengage/engage.
    PVE
    - How can I make the tank play a role for a raid, that's not "just" being a pinata for the bosses?
    - What can the tanks do during a Tank-Swap?
    - Is a sub-support role necessary (BM/PAL)? How can I make it better?
    BOTH
    - Is there both a positive and negative aspect? To gain something, you need to offer something.
    • PALADIN: Giving up parts of his life to save his allies.
    • VOID KNIGHT: Giving up parts of his power to bestow them upon his allies.
    • REAVER: Giving up his defenses to boost the offense of his allies.
    - Is there a skill-cap to differentiate a great player from a good player?
    Last edited by Byaku; 01-07-2014 at 05:06 AM.

  11. #386
    Ascendant Byaku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byaku View Post
    Below was my thought process...

    PVP
    - Tanks are not a threat, they need to somehow become one.
    - Tanks lack peeling utility, a couple of real pulls with diminishing returns only. Whereas every build is in possession of some great disengage/engage.
    PVE
    - How can I make the tank play a role for a raid, that's not "just" being a pinata for the bosses?
    - What can the tanks do during a Tank-Swap?
    - Is a sub-support role necessary (BM/PAL)? How can I make it better?
    BOTH
    - Is there both a positive and negative aspect? To gain something, you need to offer something.
    • PALADIN: Giving up parts of his life to save his allies.
    • VOID KNIGHT: Giving up parts of his power to bestow them upon his allies.
    • REAVER: Giving up his defenses to boost the offense of his allies.
    - Is there a skill-cap to differentiate a great player from a good player?
    ^ Does the effect tie in with the Lore of the Soul?

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorhend View Post
    I think you already have the answer . Give the tank a protection buff like defiler's link, absorb 100% damage from an ally in 15s, can only affect 1 ally at a time, 5s cooldown. A group buff absorb 10% damage from all allies in 20m. Some group shields like purifier. About damage, I disagree with the idea buff the tanks' damage. Instead, give them the ability to reflect damage when block. The damage they deal will depend on the damage of the enemies.
    Continue my ideas:
    A tank in pvp can charge deep into the enemy's line with lesser worry about his own life than other class, so he could be best used to harass the healers. A buff make tank deal less damage but have 30% chance to interrupt or stun their target using melee skills. AoE snare, pulls, knockbacks with shot cooldown... So the tank can run around behind the enemy's line where the healers are, knock his shield on their faces and stun them, pull them away from their allies and kick their %$^@#. He can also slow down the thieves in wf like Whitefall by snare, stun and pull them back.

  13. #388
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    No matter what gimmick you give tanks they will be weak unless it is something that scales with gear. What PvP comes down to is who can outdps the heals of the other team first.

    First of all tanks aren't even that durable.
    A healer in pvp is a much better tank, people have a valid reason to want him dead (taunt) and he can take the dmg (tank).

    The problem is that if we make tanks live through as much dmg as healers can (solo) then we have an unkillable tank if healed AND we have no reason to kill it.

    Dmg redirection is taken, I'd prefer something in the lines of:
    Blood fever:...and reduses target's Vengeance up to 1% per tank soul of your own Vengeance for 3s after a damaging ability that didn't target you.
    Keeps the tank targeting enemies only as it should, makes ppl hit for crap, has nothing to do with pve, reduses peoples dmg without making the tank unkillable, makes people hate the tank, leaves healer killing to the actuall dps and scales with gear.

    Copy/paste on different abilities for all tank classes like the pet aoe thingie all pet classes get.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    ...

    I'll disagree that this shouldn't be the case. The core function of a tank is to absorb and mitigate damage while protecting the rest of the party. So, the question is, how do we get people to want to attack tanks instead of just going for the healer first?

    ...
    You could for example dont restart EU servers for over 2 weeks and make the gameplay so laggy that only tab targeting would work.

    /irony off =)

    /on a more serious note:

    Consider making tank's single target aggression abilities work on enemy players, locking their target for 3seconds. (these abilities have 8sec cooldown)

    > If you feel that it can lead to balance problems make it cleanseable or adjust the debuff duration.

    From personal experience I've seen tank's being able to use their agro abilities in other MMO (Lineage 2) and it didnt cause any serious balance problems, as any decent players can simply re-target or assist on somebody in his group.

    As long as the ability is not spammable (aka preventing sitaution of players getting perma locked by one tank) this shouldn't cause any problems. You can even consider making aoe version of agro abillities works in the same way but only for 1second or so.

    > If you feel that aoe version could be abused by picking many tanks and then spamming their aoe one after another in CQ then you can consider creating a debuff which protects the player from getting target locked again for next "X" seconds. Perhpas this way you can make everybody happy =)

    Also thanks for posting and letting us know what are your thoughts. Even if many of us aren't happy with current state of the game, it is always nice to know that Devs are around looking for new ideas.


    <3
    Last edited by AlwaysHealNeverDie; 01-07-2014 at 10:28 AM.
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  15. #390
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    The cooldown situation is tricky as yeah you want to be careful of hybrids being able to grab a whole sackful and end up with one build to rule them all" syndrome again whilst still making sure the souls each have a comparable number/uptime on cooldowns as other tanks.

    One option would be to have all the cooldowns in each soul so high in that too many can't be grabbed in a single build - kills hybrids off altogether so maybe not the best way to go, not to mention being harmful to levelling players. The other would be to just have a lot of the cooldowns between souls share cooldown and take a more... structured approach to their cooldown groupings.

    E.g. (just hypothetical new abilities to illustrate a point) Light's Barrier (Paladin), Miasmic Barrier (Reaver), Energy Barrier (Void Knight) being fairly low in the trees but all sharing the same cooldown.
    Last edited by Kedon; 01-07-2014 at 10:42 AM.

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