Upcoming Warrior Changes

[RoughRaptorsOld]

do you think we need 3 tank souls? i very rarely tank outside of cq and 5 mans but i really dont see the point of 3 tank souls when tanks have two jobs, hold aggro and protect their team. i mean how unique can you really be. i really wish they would rework VK and Pally to be our two tank souls both on par with all the other classes 1 soul and both having a different flare. curious to what a full time tank thinks.

No, I don't think we should have three tank souls tbh. But at this point it's probably more work than they want to do to change one of them into something else.

[WhozDat]

It's not just me though, several other people have already told you that you underrate Warrior utility.

A small snip and a bit of my opinion;

The reason why Warrior utility is considered, and seems, so inferior to the other classes utility, is the simple fact that warrior utility is built higher into the trees. There's no dipping into a subsoul to get any utility to help address problems or concerns with the souls themselves. Rogues, with by far the best and largest pool of viable melee have so much utility, mobility and damage loaded into their low point investments that it's astonishing people haven't caught on yet.

Fixes are quite simple, and rather easily done.

Swap around the Interrupt/silence in VK with the cleanse. Interrupt silence on 11 points, providing useful ness in an ogcd AP, and tank durability, also possible hybrid/good subsouling with tempest due to discharge.

Lengthen Windspear to a 5 second stun, with Fork reducing the duration of CCs applied by spears by 50%. Stone spear now silences on successful interrupt. Avatar of the Rift now has a 15% MS, avatar of wind from 15% to 30%

Move flurry down to 16 points, possibly 12 points. Allows for another option for disconnects aside from mandatory 0-2 point tempest.



And those are just off the top of my head, there's many changes that can work, with minimal to no impact on pve, the only issue is the players have no idea how the devs wish to go about fixing things. What's the balance point, in PvE we have high end raids as a balancing point, in pvp, we are balancing in a vacuum with no interaction or communication from the devs, so it almost always devolves into a quarrel about people's different opinions on how souls should be and how they should interact.

[Repster]

I used to do that: extensive testing, theorycrafting, reporting bugs. And than, each and every bug went live exactly how i reported it on PTS. Each and every suggestion was fully ignored. Not one single exception to that. So i gave up testing stuff on PTS a long time ago...

You mean 2 developers ago?

Different people are in charge now, give em a shot.

[Poochymama]

burst to me is the most damage in the shortest time. you only see it as pve which is why you dont see the problem.

I definitely see both sides, which is the reason I've been trying to make that distinction over the past couple of pages. I may not have made that point all that clear, but you seem to have grasped the gist of what I was trying to say in spite of my incoherent rambling.

PvP burst is exactly what you said - "the most damage in the shortest time". It's what kills people, as it's unpredictable and harder to react to. This is where Paragon is dumb.

PvE burst is "how much damage can you squeeze into this 20 second Proteus burn"(lol tempest), or "how much damage can you squeeze into Execution phase on Warden Thrax". Paragon burst in this sense, although very strong, isn't overpowered.

I think we're pretty much on the same page now.

[Killian26]

No, I don't think we should have three tank souls tbh. But at this point it's probably more work than they want to do to change one of them into something else.

For the health of our calling it would be the better move for them to drop one tank soul. 3.0 is right around the corner and it wouldn't be that hard to change some numbers and shift xyz here and there. Seeing as you guys are doing such a swell job on the new healing soul the devs should have all kinds of time to make the change.

[Ranik]

For the health of our calling it would be the better move for them to drop one tank soul. 3.0 is right around the corner and it wouldn't be that hard to change some numbers and shift xyz here and there. Seeing as you guys are doing such a swell job on the new healing soul the devs should have all kinds of time to make the change.

Are you sure they have the time when they are so very busy releasing cash shop content ?

[Sedvick]

Are you sure they have the time when they are so very busy releasing cash shop content ?

Are you sure you understand that there are different people working on different things, and that class devs have nothing to do with the cash shop?

[Ranik]

Are you sure you understand that there are different people working on different things, and that class devs have nothing to do with the cash shop?

As opposed to our devs who are so very vocal, address issues as they are presented and actually focus on key class issues?

Because if you haven't noticed. That's not what we have.

[dday]

Are you sure you understand that there are different people working on different things, and that class devs have nothing to do with the cash shop?

a game this big not having individual class devs is troubling to me regardless of what else they work on

[RoughRaptorsOld]

Because if you haven't noticed. That's not what we have.

You realize you are posting in a thread made by a class dev who is communicating to you, right?

[Ranik]

You realize you are posting in a thread made by a class dev who is communicating to you, right?

Last response was when?

And how much of it actually addressed class issues rather than miniscule QoL changes?

Try again.

[Repster]

Miniscule QoL changes is how class issues are addressed. Otherwise, we jump up, it escalates, and the hammer comes down. Hard.

Or have you forgotten what it's like on the roller coaster?

Gotta take it slow sometimes.

[Ranik]

Miniscule QoL changes is how class issues are addressed. Otherwise, we jump up, it escalates, and the hammer comes down. Hard.

Or have you forgotten what it's like on the roller coaster?

Gotta take it slow sometimes.

So at this rate we'll wait for miniscule QoL changes that are still at least 1-3 months off. And then we'll wait another 3-6 months for more... etc etc...

Rather than targeted changes at key issues, the threat generation of Reaver AOE's will be altered.


I'm sure that will fix things promptly. After first reading it I tried to remain optimistic but Vladd's post is essentially fluff and will change nothing. And then we will wait who knows how much longer for another round of fluff.


You can act as optimistic as you want. But don't try to complain about those who don't speak in potentially unwarranted optimism.

[TheGrinnz]

If its so easy to tank these encounters as a warrior tank, then why don't we have a lot more warrior tanks in all these T2 progressing guilds using Warrior tanks for these specific encounters?

We do, because we have warrior tanks that don't suck. We've had warrior tanks that suck, as well as cleric and rogue tanks that suck. It's just easiest to be bad at warrior tanking.

[Vladd]

In reading over the past two weeks of posts... I'm honestly surprised the thread didn't get shut down by the CM's. So, let's keep it productive from here on out. Seriously.

Back when I took over, of the first 10 or so PM's that I got, several of them stressed that they wanted off of the warrior roller coaster ride. Whether or not there is or was a roller coaster isn't the issue, the fact that these folks perceived that there was one sat with me. I really took that to heart. Even though I see areas that could use sweeping change, I'm purposefully rolling out changes in pieces to keep from contributing to the roller coaster perception. Plus, it's just good design practice to not turn too many knobs at once.

With the changes that I posted at the start of this thread, I'm making the first steps towards making warrior tank souls viable again. This is my end goal and notice that I didn't say "in PVP" or "in PVE" either. These changes won't happen overnight. They'll get posted up to PTS and banged on one at a time till we feel that they are solid. Then it'll get patched out to the live servers.

Here's a preview of some of the things that are on the list to get done/evaluated to accomplish this goal. These are not the order that indicate their severity.

1. Remove the notion of this soul mitigates "X" damage type better. The niche of each tank soul should be the playstyle of it, not it being numerically superior or inferior to one of the others. No longer would Paladins be the Physical mitigation tank soul, etc.
2. Look at the mathematics behind tank souls. After the warrior tank souls are balanced with their mitigation, we need to look at how that stacks up with the other callings.
3. PVP solution to make tank souls desirable to play. This isn't necessarily a warrior specific issue as it is a global issue for all callings. Warrior just suffers from it the most.
4. Address cooldown parity with other callings as well as from soul to soul. This one is going to be rather involved as Warriors are in a unique situation of having three tank souls to other callings having one. As such, special care has to be taken when placing them in the tree as it can lead to hybridization problems.
5. Address HP and equipment scaling issues. Fairly self explanatory.
6. A hard look at the function and economy of Void Knight pacts. This is a precursor for normalizing the mitigation across all of the warrior tank souls. I'm really leaning towards removal of mitigation and + healing received from pacts because of it. Similar to the change already in for Paladin's Protector's Fury. This would mean that Void and Accord of Resilience would need to be re-purposed. That gets us into issues of what replaces them and how does that affect hybrids since they are 0 and 4 points respectively.

While the changes at the beginning of this thread might look like simple QoL changes, they are actually getting us closer to our goal. It's one more step down the road. The road that I'm trying to keep as level as possible. =)

Also, with the Reaver changes already up on PTS, this opens up the option for additions to the soul such as a toggle that reduces survivability but boosts damage done by DoT effects. Effectively making it a ranged DPS soul. As it is, I think it'll be pretty fun in Conquest. I did like the suggestion of Dire Blow and Cyclone Strike refreshing DoTs too.

Anyway, let's keep the conversation productive and avoid the taking jabs at one another. If you want to squabble, take it to PM's.

Oh, and Happy New Year!