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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Upcoming Warrior Changes

  1. #316
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    Yes they are. Paragon dps relies more heavily on its burst cooldown than Shaman, but less than Harb or NB, and about the same as Sin. Sins and Paragons burst to very similar levels during their big cooldowns, and subsequently fall back down to very similar levels afterwards; don't believe me? Go to the golem foundry and parse out a Paragon and Sin over 10-15 minutes and look at the dps graphs in ACT afterwards. A NB graph will be even more spikey, as they burst even harder.



    The wild swings don't come as a result of the burst being over tuned, they come as a result of so much of that burst being tied to one hit - and to a lesser degree the following 3 rh hits. Compare that to Sin or NB, who burst to similar levels, yet spread that burst out over more individual attacks(over the same time frame) and it's easy to see why Paragon is more vulnerable to RNG. Any time you have so much of your dps dependent on 1 hit, you're going to be heavily subject to rng. The sample size per minute is just far too small.



    Something like that may work. Instead of reducing the cooldown, they could reduce the damage and make it autocrit the next attack. That would go even further to reducing Paragon's vulnerability to rng. With +20% and autocrit, you wouldn't even need to increase DT or reduce the penalty of TTB. Paragon would lose ~400 dps on it's high end parses, but gain it back on its low end parses.



    I disagree with Temp gaining more utility. I think you underestimate the utility it has.
    Are paragon and temp not top melee and range dps right now and mainly because of their burst? (the answer is yes)

    you dont pvp please dont speak on utility when you know nothing about it. it has horrible utility compared to other range pvp souls.

    my suggestions would still give paragon and temp very nice burst cds but would swing the balance back a little. it would stabilize the dps more as well. your points make no sense, saying they are tied to one hit is the burst. if you change how that works you reduce burst and balance the soul. the auto crit idea would be something worth running as well instead of the shorter gcd.

    you dont do half of rifts content by not pvping so you really have no idea how things work you simply like your pve specs and don't want change. i do both, i am rank 90 in pvp and pull over 20k in t1 gear in raids. i know this class like the back of my hand when it comes to dps and pvp. my rl schedule doesn't let me raid hardcore like i would like but i dominate parses in my casual guild.

    i am fine with paras and temps numbers i just want to get them with less reliance on burst. our non burst hybrids really arent worth running if you know your burst and time it correctly.

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    Are paragon and temp not top melee and range dps right now and mainly because of their burst? (the answer is yes)
    Paragon burst isn't out of line with other calling's burst, that was my point. Tempest relies more on it's burst than any other range soul that I'm aware of, but Paragon doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    you dont pvp please dont speak on utility when you know nothing about it. it has horrible utility compared to other range pvp souls.
    It's not just me though, several other people have already told you that you underrate Warrior utility.

    my suggestions would still give paragon and temp very nice burst cds but would swing the balance back a little.
    If Paragon burst isn't out of line with the burst from other callings(in PvE) why does it need to be reduced? Changing CF to + 20% with autocrit would reduce the rng of the spec without reducing it's average burst potential.

    your points make no sense, saying they are tied to one hit is the burst. if you change how that works you reduce burst and balance the soul. the auto crit idea would be something worth running as well instead of the shorter gcd.
    I don't think you really understand my point(probably my fault), as it seems you're confusing PvP burst with PvE burst. My point was that Paragon rng isn't a symptom of it's burst being too high, it's a symptom of so much of that burst being tied to one hit. One hit is heavily subject to rng. The more hits you spread that burst out over, the more the law of averages will start to kick in.

    you dont do half of rifts content by not pvping so you really have no idea how things work you simply like your pve specs and don't want change.
    I don't PvP, but a lot of people do, and it's therefore an important part of the game. I don't even play at all anymore, so my personal stake in this is really quite low, I just want what's best for the calling, in all aspects of play.

    i am fine with paras and temps numbers i just want to get them with less reliance on burst.
    Screenshots of Temps - I assume Para can do something similar with SB + CF + AL - one shotting people shows quite clearly that PvP burst needs to be reduced.

    our non burst hybrids really arent worth running if you know your burst and time it correctly.
    Probably, though I'll remain skeptical until someone actually comes forth with more proof than just "trust me". I don't doubt that they gain a lot of ground and quite probably will pull ahead, but they've got a lot of ground to make up(hybrids are 500-2k ahead on the dummy), and I generally don't trust word of mouth unless I can extensively test it myself.
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

  3. #318
    Rift Master The Ic0N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BishopX View Post
    energy issues?

    stop spamming macros in pvp

    problem solved


    I feel like ive said this before.......


    You have no clue what you are talking about Bishop. The spec is completely energy starved. It doesnt matter what skills u are using. Stick to making videos no one watches, you are much better at it then this
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  4. #319
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    Paragon burst isn't out of line with other calling's burst, that was my point. Tempest relies more on it's burst than any other range soul that I'm aware of, but Paragon doesn't.

    it is though

    It's not just me though, several other people have already told you that you underrate Warrior utility.

    non warriors or people who dont pvp

    If Paragon burst isn't out of line with the burst from other callings(in PvE) why does it need to be reduced? Changing CF to + 20% with autocrit would reduce the rng of the spec without reducing it's average burst potential.

    because its a one shot in pvp and it is still higher than everyone burst in pve

    I don't think you really understand my point(probably my fault), as it seems you're confusing PvP burst with PvE burst. My point was that Paragon rng isn't a symptom of it's burst being too high, it's a symptom of so much of that burst being tied to one hit. One hit is heavily subject to rng. The more hits you spread that burst out over, the more the law of averages will start to kick in.

    haha you get burst is that hit, so you reduce the burst by reducing that hit. by reducing CB to what we said it will balance it out


    I don't PvP, but a lot of people do, and it's therefore an important part of the game. I don't even play at all anymore, so my personal stake in this is really quite low, I just want what's best for the calling, in all aspects of play.

    we are the worst pvp class by a lot for either pbeing totally useless, boring or grossly OP


    Screenshots of Temps - I assume Para can do something similar with SB + CF + AL - one shotting people shows quite clearly that PvP burst needs to be reduced.

    they do but you cant just nerf burst because of how bad everything else is

    Probably, though I'll remain skeptical until someone actually comes forth with more proof than just "trust me". I don't doubt that they gain a lot of ground and quite probably will pull ahead, but they've got a lot of ground to make up(hybrids are 500-2k ahead on the dummy), and I generally don't trust word of mouth unless I can extensively test it myself.
    i havent gotten one hybrid to out parse 61 temp or 61 para unless i mess up

  5. #320
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    Can you please consider extending the range on warrior taunts out to 30m. I really don't see why they are currently only 20m.
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  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    it is though
    It isn't though

    Every calling has a spec that's capable of bursting up to 50kish during those 15 second burst phases. Some may be slightly higher, some may be slightly lower, but there all around that mark. Paragon isn't the only soul that can do this. The difference between Paragon and those other souls is that Paragon loads much of that dmg into the first couple seconds, where as most of the other souls more evenly distribute that dmg over that period.

    haha you get burst is that hit, so you reduce the burst by reducing that hit. by reducing CB to what we said it will balance it out
    Reducing that hit reduces PvP burst, but doesn't necessarily reduce PvE burst, given that you compensate for that somewhere else within that 15 second window. I still think we're getting mixed up over the whole PvP vs PvE burst thing. PvE burst is more about how much dmg you can fit within a planned 15 second window. Where the dmg comes from within that window, or how bursty it is within that window doesn't matter all that much in PvE(though it matters a great deal in PvP).

    i havent gotten one hybrid to out parse 61 temp or 61 para unless i mess up
    In what context? and how many times did you directly compare them? If were talking golem foundry, you're doing something wrong if you're hybrid parses aren't a good deal above your 61 Paragon parses. 61 Paragon settles right in about 26k over a 20min parse; hybrids are 26-29k over 2 min parses(starvation prevents longer parses).

    I do think Wavelength is a bit too strong, as it's actually stronger than Alacrity.
    Last edited by Poochymama; 01-05-2014 at 12:51 PM.
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

  7. #322
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    It isn't though

    Every calling has a spec that's capable of bursting up to 50kish during those 15 second burst phases. Some may be slightly higher, some may be slightly lower, but there all around that mark. Paragon isn't the only soul that can do this. The difference between Paragon and those other souls is that Paragon loads much of that dmg into the first couple seconds, where as most of the other souls more evenly distribute that dmg over that period.



    Reducing that hit reduces PvP burst, but doesn't necessarily reduce PvE burst, given that you compensate for that somewhere else within that 15 second window. I still think we're getting mixed up over the whole PvP vs PvE burst thing. PvE burst is more about how much dmg you can fit within a planned 15 second window. Where the dmg comes from within that window, or how bursty it is within that window doesn't matter all that much in PvE(though it matters a great deal in PvP).



    In what context? and how many times did you directly compare them? If were talking golem foundry, you're doing something wrong if you're hybrid parses aren't a good deal above your 61 Paragon parses. 61 Paragon settles right in about 26k over a 20min parse; hybrids are 26-29k over 2 min parses(starvation prevents longer parses).

    I do think Wavelength is a bit too strong, as it's actually stronger than Alacrity.
    dummy foundry is piss poor for testing burst and yes wl is much better than alacrity.

    again you seem to dismiss that para and temp both have the best burst and lowering them slightly would not destroy the specs. only thing comparable is NB and harb which both do less st than para.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    And regarding "specialty testers", Reaver changes have been up on the PTS for about two or three weeks now, have many times have you bothered to test it and send in your feedback? If your answer is zero, then you have no need to post anything in this thread regarding the people who actually do take the time and send in feedback.
    oh you mean having to paint the ground with wonderful circles of aggro and hope they run through yep. Yea I think plenty of feedback has been sent on that. But wont make a difference in the over all picture, in 3 months down the road, It will be found to be seriously flawed and We will have another crisis and the spec's will need another revamp. Instead of just fixing it right the first time. But the need of few of the testers to keep the warrior tanking souls Handicapped to maintain its "Challenge". All we have to do is look at the current state of the warrior class. Less health, Less mitigation, Less Cool useful cool downs. But the "Selected Testers" raved about How great all that was because it kept it challenging. Hence the current crisis Yet again. Normal player feedback means very little. And will continue to do so.

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    dummy foundry is piss poor for testing burst and yes wl is much better than alacrity.
    Exactly, hence why I asked you the question about in what context. I've just yet to see proof that Paragon can really make up that 1-2k gap. How many times did you test each spec? Over how many minutes? How far ahead was it?

    On a short fight like Krizzix, I'd bet money that Paragon wins pretty handily, but on longer fights I'm still more skeptical. I'd just like to see meaningful evidence is all, since I can't test it myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    again you seem to dismiss that para and temp both have the best burst and lowering them slightly would not destroy the specs.
    I dismiss it because it's simply not true with Paragon. Paragon heavily frontloads its dmg within that burst window(hence why it's so deadly in PvP), but then loses ground over the remainder of the window. Paragon, Sin, and Harb are all capable of putting out similar amounts of dmg over 15 seconds. I think Shaman burst is slightly less, but I don't think it's that far behind.

    Reducing the dmg Paragon can output over 15 seconds slightly won't ruin the spec, I just don't see the point of doing that, given that we already have 5-6 sustained specs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Wavelength is a different story.

    I lowballed my previous calculations(I didn't take into account raid buffs), so a +20% autocrit alacrity would probably lower high end Paragon parses by 600-700 while increasing low end parses by a slightly greater amount, both of which are good things imo.

    only thing comparable is NB and harb which both do less st than para.
    And sin, and shaman. Shaman and Harb do less st than Para, but I don't really see that as a problem given their AoE; they're not that far behind. Assassin st should really be above Paragon - given its other limitations - but that's a debate for another thread I suppose
    Last edited by Poochymama; 01-05-2014 at 01:38 PM.
    And the answer to this ridiculous balance pendulum was always "just purge them!" - Rizaz

  10. #325
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimburn View Post
    Normal player feedback means very little. And will continue to do so.
    I don't believe that's the case at all. If "normal player", whatever that means, feedback means very little, then that is a major issue. Most likely you are getting this so called "normal" feedback mixed up with bad feedback or maybe even worse kind of feedback, like the kind you seem to have been proposing: nonconstructive feedback..."buff warriors hp and mitigation and give us better cooldowns and more threat thanks."
    Last edited by RoughRaptorsOld; 01-05-2014 at 01:38 PM.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    Paladin: st heals, aoe stun, Life Rapture and Reverent Protection(if it wouldn`t be crap and finally buffed or changed)
    St heals...srsly? you call that heals?
    aoe stun...doesnt work 95% of the time, and if it does it most likely is an exploit
    Reverent Protection...is crap, as you already stated

    VK: st+aoe purge+dispell, st+aoe silence, summons, can shield other people(Rift Shield)
    Undisputably some decent things there, still the first and most important job of a tank consists of...
    - keeping aggro (all tanks equally good, if you dont talk about a clerics uber "i can tank anything anytime anywhere" ability)
    - effective health and mitigation (probably on par, or close to it)
    - cooldowns (a rather sad story for warriors)

    Guess this is more than dps.
    There is, but for the stuff that really matters, warriors are not really your first choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    And regarding "specialty testers", Reaver changes have been up on the PTS for about two or three weeks now, have many times have you bothered to test it and send in your feedback? If your answer is zero, then you have no need to post anything in this thread regarding the people who actually do take the time and send in feedback.
    I used to do that: extensive testing, theorycrafting, reporting bugs. And than, each and every bug went live exactly how i reported it on PTS. Each and every suggestion was fully ignored. Not one single exception to that. So i gave up testing stuff on PTS a long time ago...
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  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    I don't believe that's the case at all. If "normal player", whatever that means, feedback means very little, then that is a major issue. Most likely you are getting this so called "normal" feedback mixed up with bad feedback or maybe even worse kind of feedback, like the kind you seem to have been proposing: nonconstructive feedback..."buff warriors hp and mitigation and give us better cooldowns and more threat thanks."
    And you just proved my point, you automatically assumed that all feed back not made by you and a few selected members as being "poor or bad" And you also imply that because I used a generalized format to bring a consistent issue and problem populated by your self, and a few select others. There is No reason to go into a nuts and bolts break down. That's the Dev's job. How difficult is it to state, that Mitigation needs be the Very same between a Rogue,Warrior or Cleric tank Not 2 or 3% difference like it currently is. There should be No difference in the Healing receive Nor the amount of Hit points between the respective Tanking classes. Warrior tanking souls should have Effective Cool downs On par with the other respective Tanking classes depending on the specific souls we are in.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post
    Exactly, hence why I asked you the question about in what context. I've just yet to see proof that Paragon can really make up that 1-2k gap. How many times did you test each spec? Over how many minutes? How far ahead was it?

    On a short fight like Krizzix, I'd bet money that Paragon wins pretty handily, but on longer fights I'm still more skeptical. I'd just like to see meaningful evidence is all, since I can't test it myself.



    I dismiss it because it's simply not true with Paragon. Paragon heavily frontloads its dmg within that burst window(hence why it's so deadly in PvP), but then loses ground over the remainder of the window. Paragon, Sin, and Harb are all capable of putting out similar amounts of dmg over 15 seconds. I think Shaman burst is slightly less, but I don't think it's that far behind.

    Reducing the dmg Paragon can output over 15 seconds slightly won't ruin the spec, I just don't see the point of doing that, given that we already have 5-6 sustained specs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Wavelength is a different story.

    I lowballed my previous calculations(I didn't take into account raid buffs), so a +20% autocrit alacrity would probably lower high end Paragon parses by 600-700 while increasing low end parses by a slightly greater amount, both of which are good things imo.



    And sin, and shaman. Shaman and Harb do less st than Para, but I don't really see that as a problem given their AoE; they're not that far behind. Assassin st should really be above Paragon - given its other limitations - but that's a debate for another thread I suppose
    burst to me is the most damage in the shortest time. you only see it as pve which is why you dont see the problem. No i and stress No class has the burst of paragon or tempest because there is nothing like arc or SB. it will provide the highest damaging attack there is in both pvp and pve. not debatable.

    where you seem to think its ok is that other classes can do on par burst or more over a longer period of time which to me is worst burst. what i want is paragons and temps burst to be more spread out like other classes. shamen, nb, sin ect ect have awesome burst but it is balanced in a pvp and pve scenario while also providing better pvp utility and better sustained.

    right now we depend on that burst to crit in both pvp and pve for those 3 attacks that proc either sb or arc in pvp and to a lesser extent pve.

  14. #329
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimburn View Post
    And you just proved my point, you automatically assumed that all feed back not made by you and a few selected members as being "poor or bad" And you also imply that because I used a generalized format to bring a consistent issue and problem populated by your self, and a few select others.
    No, I don't assume that all feedback made by the general population is bad, but I know for a fact that a lot of it is. When providing feedback, it's not as simple as giving a generalized format and just saying "give us more hp, cooldowns, etc". That's most likely going to be ignored. Go into detail about what is wrong with the soul, go about why you think it should be changed, compare it with the other classes. Then explain how you think it should be done after your reasoning for it needing to be changed has been thoroughly explained.
    Last edited by RoughRaptorsOld; 01-05-2014 at 02:12 PM.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    No, I don't assume that all feedback made by the general population is bad, but I know for a fact that a lot of it is. When providing feedback, it's not as simple as giving a generalized format and just saying "give us more hp, cooldowns, etc". That's most likely going to be ignored. Go into detail about what is wrong with the soul, go about why you think it should be changed, compare it with the other classes. Then explain how you think it should be done after your reasoning for it needing to be changed has been thoroughly explained.
    do you think we need 3 tank souls? i very rarely tank outside of cq and 5 mans but i really dont see the point of 3 tank souls when tanks have two jobs, hold aggro and protect their team. i mean how unique can you really be. i really wish they would rework VK and Pally to be our two tank souls both on par with all the other classes 1 soul and both having a different flare. curious to what a full time tank thinks.

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