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Thread: State of warrior class

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default State of warrior class

    So the cleric buffs hit yesterday and the numbers theyre doing is insane as expected. Before the patch they were already close to the top of charts if not top on most fights. They have 2 top dps specs, 1 which pushes ST a bit more and 1 which pushes AOE and both handle disconnects well.

    Mages in my guild aren't as geared but of the great geared mages i know they do insane numbers all from a comfy 30m range.

    Both classes have a ton of raid flexibility to ensure their spots, they can heal, they can support, they can dps, they can purge, they can int.

    While those classes have been soaring both rogue and warrior have been pigeon holed into specs that dont work. I'll leave rogue to their own thing but even they have more raid value than us right now.

    Paragon: Great ST melee DPS. No utility to raid. No AOE. Disaster with disconnects.

    RiftBlade: Good ST melee DPS. Good with disconnects. Average AOE. No utility to raid. Fork nerf killed RB's value on bosses like kain or matriarch. Massively energy starved especially when chloros die or forget LE.

    Champion: Good AOE. No utility to raid. Pointless soul outside of trash.

    Warlord: Broken cheese build exploiting a broken crystal, massively energy starved. No raid utility.

    Tempest: 25m range, poor to good ST range DPS. Works well on some fights, on most is massively outclassed by all other dps specs of all other classes. A good 7-8k behind on goloch to paragon and 3-4k on other fights. 1 decent raid buff.

    Beast Master: Good ST DPS in a support spec but far less than pyrochon. Worst support spec. Why use it when better options are available.

    A core problem with warrior dps is also the HUGE ramp up time. Every single spec we have takes a good 10-20 seconds to reach their top dps output as every spec is drowining in DOTs and debuffs. Cleric and mage both do their top dps in about half the time which makes them much more flexible in a raid environment when you have to switch target. Warrior is by far the easiest class to ditch from a raid, they are so inflexible and offer so little raid utility. It was true for months but out utility has been stripped back even further as each spec has been laser focused into specific roles.

    I dont doubt that warrior is less buggy than it used to be but as a raid viable class it is getting left behind. This wouldn't be an issue if we were due changes but we only just got a raft of changes that ended up being more of a nerf than anything.

    I want to know what the planned dps ranges are for the classes in T2 in similar gear, I want to know why warrior specs are being focused into specific roles when other classes are being expanded to fill more roles. I want to know why our range dps spec is meant to do less than our melee dps spec when other classes have range specs doing more dps than our melee specs.

    EDIT: Just so this doesnt become a L2P thing, I know skill beats out most everything and thats why the warriors in my guild are guaranteed their place. They're all fine players but they excel in spite of the class being run into the ground.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwick View Post
    Beast Master: Good ST DPS in a support spec but far less than pyrochon. Worst support spec. Why use it when better options are available.
    No particular points I want to bring up but this one, since I play it often... around 15-16k st dps is poor for a support class? I mean sure, paragons and RB could do 18-22k but... Now it used to do much less, granted, so maybe that's what you are basing this on.

    It's my opinion that very few warriors enjoy playing "warrior support" and put much effort into it. It's a good argument that it's no good, cause then they don't have to run it...

  3. #3
    Ascendant Byaku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krysanthe View Post
    No particular points I want to bring up but this one, since I play it often... around 15-16k st dps is poor for a support class? I mean sure, paragons and RB could do 18-22k but... Now it used to do much less, granted, so maybe that's what you are basing this on.

    It's my opinion that very few warriors enjoy playing "warrior support" and put much effort into it. It's a good argument that it's no good, cause then they don't have to run it...
    Did you read his post? You quoted it yet I don't even understand what made you write that response.

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara seppy's Avatar
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    Bwick, 1st of all, make the signature ^^.

    Adding some raid utilities so warrior have at least 1 mandatory spot, would be wise from Devs. Unless a casual guild, bringing more than 1-2 v good warriors its not an option imo, appart from tank spots.

    Having said that, an armor reduction from war only class could be a good example. If i remember correct, we had some kind of it in ID days with champ/BM.

    As for clerics and mages buff..they think its balanced now. Nc humor from them.

    Mages: Must have spots-> chloros, archon, can bring top dps in game
    Clerics: Must have spots-> Puri, defiler, warden, can bring top dps in game
    Rogues: Must have spots-> bard, lethal poison, can bring avarage dps in game
    Warriors: Must have spots-> none, can bring "DPS in general", go figure

    i would say this: If you chose a healing class, you cannot be above a non heal class in meters, whatever ur skill is. If ur skill is THAT good, re roll.
    Dps warrior - Apotheosys
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  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Sorry, I sometimes talk while assuming people are "in on" my inner mind, which of course they aren't... and before you say "Oh there are medications for that"....yes I know.

    What are some numbers of what a pyrochron in full t1 raid gear should be doing in a st fight? That was what I expected someone to respond with. The beastmasters in our raids usually keep up with the other dps, though they aren't at the top.

    Why is it the worst support spec? In terms of healing? Well, it doesn't really heal much at all.
    The buffs it provides are on par with archon, missing a few, gaining a few others. It was the archon in our raid that asks me to run BM, so we can keep a few buffs up, that otherwise would fall off, like these two work together, they do overwrite but neither can be up constantly:
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/3259...rimal-lucidity
    and
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/-63728015/surging-flare

    And sure, flaring power and command to attack use the same cool down but what about:
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/-304...o-stand-ground
    It's been very helpful for progression.

    Also another unique buff that no other class provides:
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/1265037273/enrage

    (edit)- I forgot, it also is the only soul in the game with a spammable purge.

    So, that's a bit better... Usually I just hate writing a book. And I don't mean any of this in a condescending way. I just want to add this to the plate as I feel that beastmaster is important.
    Last edited by Krysanthe; 08-02-2013 at 05:38 AM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    I bet because it's a melee pet class, instead of a ranged caster.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Byaku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krysanthe View Post
    Sorry, I sometimes talk while assuming people are "in on" my inner mind, which of course they aren't... and before you say "Oh there are medications for that"....yes I know.

    What are some numbers of what a pyrochron in full t1 raid gear should be doing in a st fight? That was what I expected someone to respond with. The beastmasters in our raids usually keep up with the other dps, though they aren't at the top.

    Why is it the worst support spec? In terms of healing? Well, it doesn't really heal much at all.
    The buffs it provides are on par with archon, missing a few, gaining a few others. It was the archon in our raid that asks me to run BM, so we can keep a few buffs up, that otherwise would fall off, like these two work together, they do overwrite but neither can be up constantly:
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/3259...rimal-lucidity
    and
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/-63728015/surging-flare

    And sure, flaring power and command to attack use the same cool down but what about:
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/-304...o-stand-ground
    It's been very helpful for progression.

    Also another unique buff that no other class provides:
    http://www.rifthead.com/ability/1265037273/enrage

    (edit)- I forgot, it also is the only soul in the game with a spammable purge.

    So, that's a bit better... Usually I just hate writing a book. And I don't mean any of this in a condescending way. I just want to add this to the plate as I feel that beastmaster is important.
    There is nothing wrong with Beastmaster, no one even said there was anything wrong with Beastmaster. I've said it again and again, the best raid composition should always have a Beastmaster if the fight allows it.

    Pyrochon are pulling 18k on DUMMIES, they are range, they are pulling those kinds of numbers while applying their buffs/debuffs. A Beastmaster will take a pummel in DPS to apply it's unique buffs (the ones you listed), unless you weave it in, but weaving something you should use as a "reactive/situational" is not the best choice. You are gimping yourself doing that.

    No one said Beastmaster can't pull good DPS, I personally laugh at how much DPS my Beastmaster can pull, but the topic is about our viability and raid spots when you're put into a competitive raiding group where everyone's skill levels are the same. It's exactly as Seppy said. We bring nothing to the raid that's a "Must", unless a time that such a tight DPS requirement is necessary that bringing a Beastmaster is of benefit, it will not be favored over a standard DPS.

    - Range, no cool-down Purge. How many fights do we have that actually requires constant purging? It's also a DPS loss when we're using our utility, we're barely keeping up in DPS with Pyrochon with excellent rotation/ability management, if we're pigeon-holed into providing utility that other classes should provide, our DPS flops, if that's the case what do we really bring to the table?

    The only thing I could possibly see Warriors bringing to the raiding table is a Tank that has self-cleanse and self-purge (possibly more DPS, but not really his job). But even then we have multiple tank specs for different purposes, this is a great idea. However, we're left to deal with a majority of encounters having both physical and magical mitigation requirement, and we simply cannot fill both quotas as a Tank where a Rogue and Cleric can (Why do you think Warrior Tanks get hit harder and healers all saying it's easier to heal a Cleric and Rogue as oppose to a Warrior?).

  8. #8
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    I expected something whiny and PvP focused but I actually agree on pretty much all points here, good post.

    I would say that warriors currently are still fine, but the points of raid utility are still valid.

    Tempest needs something. I know most warriors like me could care less as all t1 raids are melee friendly but it does MM level dps with meh utility and ranger/pyro/necro/inquisitors all outclass it it. The rotation is just downright annoying as well.

    Para and warlord/bm variant offer top tier dps still but at the expense of any aoe, suffer from disconnects, target swapping.

    The points about target swapping are valid as well, because of ramp up time. Fork was our answer and fork riftspear is still great, when it's up such means not using it in your rotation wich is a dps loss, flamespear not so much.
    Shieldy 60 Warrior
    Gloredhel 60 Mage

  9. #9
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    get on the mage bandwagon guys you won't regret it. 100x more fun. harb is better then all our melee souls, chloro is fun, pyro is insane, necro is better then all our pvp souls except rb, archon is better then bm, better 1 v 1 builds, better pvp builds in general outside of rb. just all around a much better class with better utility and better more diverse options.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    In the history of Rift raiding, this issue has come up like 4 billion times after class tweaks shifted top dps. Current parity in dps between classes isn't enough to justify taking a mage or cleric dps over a warrior dps. Bottom line is your raid is still going to take the best available players regardless of class. Who are you going to take, a mage or cleric that can pull good numbers but dies to every mechanic ever, or a warrior that is within a few % of their dps but never dies? The funny thing is we're going to have this same exact conversation in a few months, but in the opposite direction.

    Mages doing 40k on Ultane is dumb though. Nerf Ownagejuice.

  11. #11
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopok View Post
    In the history of Rift raiding, this issue has come up like 4 billion times after class tweaks shifted top dps. Current parity in dps between classes isn't enough to justify taking a mage or cleric dps over a warrior dps. Bottom line is your raid is still going to take the best available players regardless of class. Who are you going to take, a mage or cleric that can pull good numbers but dies to every mechanic ever, or a warrior that is within a few % of their dps but never dies? The funny thing is we're going to have this same exact conversation in a few months, but in the opposite direction.

    Mages doing 40k on Ultane is dumb though. Nerf Ownagejuice.
    Yea I don't think warriors are that bad in either PvP or pve they just aren't fun to play anymore imo. very boring and pigeonholed more then mage or cleric

  12. #12
    Telaran Sunshiro's Avatar
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    You get yourself in a meaningless situation man...
    Do you enjoy playing a war?
    This is what really matters...
    In my guild's raids there are no melee...
    Im not saying melee war...
    There is 0 melee dps...
    Everyone is ranged...
    Last edited by Sunshiro; 08-02-2013 at 06:41 AM.

  13. #13
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshiro View Post
    You get yourself in a meaningless situation man...
    Do you enjoy playing a war?
    This is what really matters...
    In my guild's raids there are no melee...
    Im not saying melee war...
    There is 0 melee dps...
    Everyone is ranged...
    then your guild is very bad no offense.

  14. #14
    Telaran Sunshiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    then your guild is very bad no offense.
    Why we clear t1 raids...
    We didnt try t2 raids yet...
    Why we are bad?
    Because we use no melee dps from any class?
    Last edited by Sunshiro; 08-02-2013 at 06:44 AM.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Ophelya99's Avatar
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    I think warriors are missing out on a control-type soul. The closest thing you have is void knight, and while there are some nice controlling abilities, you guys don't have a soul that's on the same page as saboteurs, cabalists, or dominators.

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