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Thread: Warrior PVE DPS

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara
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    Default Warrior PVE DPS

    Warlord - If you really want to maximize damage you need to spec into paragon and use follow-ups for weapon familiarity but you lose any AOE except for one 30 second finisher. If you are in a fight with single target dps requirement why use warlord because Paragon would be a better choice. You can go Warlord / 15 Champ but you lose to much single target dps and the AOE is less then RB which does more damage single target. The damage from Mighty blow sucks. Warlord has no point in the game. No one will use the spec for raid and it is still a solo spec / pvp spec with a surge no one will use because it increases damage taken by 10%.. In fact, I doubt it can be used for pvp due to the surge which leaves warriors now ONLY one spec they can use in PVP. To give you a hint it is not Warlord.

    Riftblade - The toggle ability is stupid. Warriors now have a toggle for two abilities? What exactly is the point other than to waste time. The burst from forked rift spear kept RB competitive with several specs from other classes (melee and range) and now RB is behind. Very behind these others specs. This is based on results of raiding tonight with some very good players. What exactly was the point to the change? How does making RB sub-par to comparable specs help with balancing the game.

    Champion - Does really good on any fight with more then one mob. Used on the twins and was sitting easily around 27k to 28k. You need to weave in paragon follow-ups for the + weapon modifier and the ability that turns single target to AOE. Alternate every other chains on 30 second timer.

    Paragon - So warriors have a high single target spec that is on par with ranged specs from Mages and soon to be Clerics. Rogues have melee specs that are comparable as well. I have no doubt a rogue will come in this thread and say they don't but it is not true. I assume the plan is to make it so all paragon abilties have 30 meter range because where does it make sense for a ranged Pyro spec to have as much dps as a melee single target spec when said melee spec has no AOE and poor ability to handle disconnects. At least add some ranged follow-ups. I thought the idea was balance? Trion.. you have not balanced single target damage. You made it worse. The changes on the PTS to Clerics being proposed are horrible for balance.

    I have yet to test reaver. Might be good with tempest but you need to 61 points into tempest for the 1 second gcd and 15 points in reaver gives you absolutely nothing. If the plan was to increase soul synergy then useful abilities need to be available sub 15 points because right now warriors are very reliant on the 61 point abilities in souls. You can't mix and match because you still have to go 61 points in. You can make hybrids and they will be moderately effective.

    Tanking - I tank GA but to be honest warrior tanks are behind clerics and rogues. The problem is clerics and rogues only need one soul and can tank everything in the game. Why should a warrior go reaver for max magic mitigation, paladin for max physical, and still do just as good or many times worse then one soul from another class? Give warriors one tank soul so we can have other spec options. What exactly is the logic or point to giving a class multiple specs for tanking but then giving this same ability to a class with one role that frankly can do it more effectively.

    In other words, it is time to wake up.
    Last edited by Sidvader; 07-18-2013 at 08:48 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Sedvick's Avatar
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    I'll only address the tank portion since that's mainly what I do. As good as the other classes tanking specs are, they are pretty much pigeon-holed into 1 spec. On the other hand, Warrior tanks have a plethora of options that all feel unique and have their own unique niches. Each tank class have their own highlights as well. Clerics have healing/brez/AE threat, Rogues have mobility/cds and Warriors bring the dps.

    In the end, say it with me now, everything is FINE.

    Sedvick /// Warrior Lead of -Vendetta- /// 4/5 Mount Disappointment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    I'll only address the tank portion since that's mainly what I do. As good as the other classes tanking specs are, they are pretty much pigeon-holed into 1 spec. On the other hand, Warrior tanks have a plethora of options that all feel unique and have their own unique niches. Each tank class have their own highlights as well. Clerics have healing/brez/AE threat, Rogues have mobility/cds and Warriors bring the dps.

    In the end, say it with me now, everything is FINE.
    You are not following. They are different but it does not matter. There is not one boss in this game that a rogue or cleric cannot tank with one soul. Not one... period. Why does the warrior class need three souls to accomplish the same thing. It is a waste.

    In the end, say it with me now, everything is not FINE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    You are not following. They are different but it does not matter. There is not one boss in this game that a rogue or cleric cannot tank with one soul. Not one... period. Why does the warrior class need three souls to accomplish the same thing. It is a waste.

    In the end, say it with me now, everything is not FINE.
    You can technically tank all bosses in this game using one primary soul as well, for a warrior.
    The main idea with the different souls is to generate flexibility and style of play.
    Yes, some builds are greater than other builds in certain aspects, but that's ease of play.

    Pretty much why you would want at least one cleric tank on Gelidra - not because a warrior or rogue tank can't get the job done, but its easier to pick up the harpies with a Cleric Tank.

    In the end, it all boils down to ease of play per boss.
    So things are fine; and I thought this was a thread on PVE DPS.

  5. #5
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    Let me explain it another way... Take for example Clerics. If you categorize heals into one category you have:

    1) Defiler - Heals and protects based on links.
    2) Purifier - Heals and provides shields.
    3) Sent - Single target heals.
    4) Warden - You get my point.

    A cleric can have a spot in the raid as tank (x2), Heals (x5), and dps (x whatever).

    Now take tanking. Whether a warrior can go VK, PLD, or Reaver it is still the same thing in regards to its function and what is accomplishes. You cannot replace a defiler with a warden although they serve the same general purpose. Another problem is tanks fight for only max two spots in the raid. Warriors do not need three souls to accomplish the same thing for a very limited spot in a raid.

    The counter argument is dps. Every class has many dps souls and these make up the majority of spots in a raid. There is a lot of redundancy. The issue is every other class except for warrior can fulfill more varied roles.

    I say....
    Make Reaver a ranged AOE soul.
    Make VK a dominator type soul.
    Make PLD a tank soul.

    I am just asking what is the point because frankly it makes no sense currently.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    You can technically tank all bosses in this game using one primary soul as well, for a warrior.
    The main idea with the different souls is to generate flexibility and style of play.
    Yes, some builds are greater than other builds in certain aspects, but that's ease of play.

    Pretty much why you would want at least one cleric tank on Gelidra - not because a warrior or rogue tank can't get the job done, but its easier to pick up the harpies with a Cleric Tank.

    In the end, it all boils down to ease of play per boss.
    So things are fine; and I thought this was a thread on PVE DPS.
    It is about PVE dps. The guy just commented on tanking.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Sedvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    It is about PVE dps. The guy just commented on tanking.
    Because you mentioned tanking, which you obviously know nothing about.
    Last edited by Sedvick; 07-18-2013 at 09:24 PM.

    Sedvick /// Warrior Lead of -Vendetta- /// 4/5 Mount Disappointment

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    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    Let me explain it another way... Take for example Clerics. If you categorize heals into one category you have:

    1) Defiler - Heals and protects based on links.
    2) Purifier - Heals and provides shields.
    3) Sent - Single target heals.
    4) Warden - You get my point.

    A cleric can have a spot in the raid as tank (x2), Heals (x5), and dps (x whatever).

    Now take tanking. Whether a warrior can go VK, PLD, or Reaver it is still the same thing in regards to its function and what is accomplishes. You cannot replace a defiler with a warden although they serve the same general purpose. Another problem is tanks fight for only max two spots in the raid. Warriors do not need three souls to accomplish the same thing for a very limited spot in a raid.

    The counter argument is dps. Every class has many dps souls and these make up the majority of spots in a raid. There is a lot of redundancy. The issue is every other class except for warrior can fulfill more varied roles.

    I say....
    Make Reaver a ranged AOE soul.
    Make VK a dominator type soul.
    Make PLD a tank soul.

    I am just asking what is the point because frankly it makes no sense currently.
    Primarily because Rift started off trying to hold true to the MMO tradition before branching and experimenting.

    Warrior has 3 Tank Souls, 5 Melee DPS Souls (of which one got recently converted into a pure support), and 1 Ranged Soul
    Rogue has 1 Tank Soul, Bard, 4 Ranged DPS Souls, 3 Melee DPS Souls
    Mage has 1 Heal Soul, Archon, 1 Melee Soul, 6 Ranged DPS Souls
    Cleric has 1 Tank Soul, 4 Heal Souls, 2 Ranged DPS Douls, 2 Melee DPS Souls

    (Bolded show the predominance for each calling)
    In effect: Warriors are for tanking and melee DPS, Rogues are for Ranged or Melee DPS, Mages are Ranged DPS, and Clerics are healers.

    Sound familiar?

    So after all the experimenting, yes things might seem a tad convoluted, but the system is the system. Just play with it. Don't like it, don't play it.

    ~
    I can argue or attest to your statements about DPS, but I am biased in that whatever it is, it seems to work for me.
    So even if the points were valid, I would have no intelligent or worthwhile response.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 07-18-2013 at 09:40 PM.

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    Here's what I will agree on, warlord.

    I specced back into it again with the recent changes and again, I can't think of any reason to keep it.

    From a survivability point of view, it's significantly behind my 61ch/13wl/2para build. Now with the recent champ ST buff, it's even more irrelevant. Using survivability postures and surges also reduces dps further.

    From a dps pov, it has good initial burst, that puts it on par with RB but them starves and falls behind as RB ramps up dps. Using dps surges and postures lowers survivability.

    I also really don't understand the number of postures. It has four but you can only use two. You will always use the 61pt posture and It has 2 tanky type and one dps. In would like to see the max number of postures go to 3 OR combine recovery and defensive posture.

    I really don't get it, it's not worth the role slot for solo, or dps. I pvped with it before but RB was still better. What's the point? I think as long as the soul sits in its current state its a waste of a soul and only usefull for hybrids.
    Shieldy 60 Warrior
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    Here's what I will agree on, warlord.

    I specced back into it again with the recent changes and again, I can't think of any reason to keep it.

    From a survivability point of view, it's significantly behind my 61ch/13wl/2para build. Now with the recent champ ST buff, it's even more irrelevant. Using survivability postures and surges also reduces dps further.

    From a dps pov, it has good initial burst, that puts it on par with RB but them starves and falls behind as RB ramps up dps. Using dps surges and postures lowers survivability.

    I also really don't understand the number of postures. It has four but you can only use two. You will always use the 61pt posture and It has 2 tanky type and one dps. In would like to see the max number of postures go to 3 OR combine recovery and defensive posture.

    I really don't get it, it's not worth the role slot for solo, or dps. I pvped with it before but RB was still better. What's the point? I think as long as the soul sits in its current state its a waste of a soul and only usefull for hybrids.
    I agree. The saddest adjustment was to RB because it is now behind other specs. It is a shame.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    Because you mentioned tanking, which you obviously know nothing about.
    Errr.. Nothing I said was factually incorrect.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Sedvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    Errr.. Nothing I said was factually incorrect.
    This is the same tired argument of Chloro vs. Cleric. Why not get rid of all the Cleric healing specs since Chloro can do it all with 1 anyways? See how dumb that sounds? Why pigeon-hole us into 1 tank spec and get rid of the variety of options? Sure what you said is factual, but that doesn't make it a good suggestion.
    Last edited by Sedvick; 07-19-2013 at 10:09 AM.

    Sedvick /// Warrior Lead of -Vendetta- /// 4/5 Mount Disappointment

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    i dont think the tank/dps hybrid thing they have attempted to do with warlord really works. i mean it could be a pvp thing, but then taking 10% more damage just wrecks that, and it doesnt have the range options to really excel at pvp in its current state anyhow.

    like the pull having a tank taunt component if you use recovery posture. thats just ridiculous. its not a real tank so its not going to be geared for tanking and its just going to die if it tries.

    they obviously want to move it over to dps spec, so they need to just do that and get rid of the half-a-class thing. maybe do a bit less dps for higher survivability. it would be nice for solo/pvp. but the current form of warlord just makes it good for recovery posture and thats about it.

    just my opinion, everyone has one.

  14. #14
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    I have to disagree with the assessment of a rare few that warrior tanking is "fine". To compare cleric and rogue tanking strengths to warriors' dps advantage is just plain dumb. Maybe its a bonus for instance tanking, but any seasoned tank knows that dps on a defensive raid tank is ONLY useful if your agro is dependent on it. Dps for dps sake has no place whatsoever in a raid tank build, and to compare it to benifits like universal agro which actually help in the tanking job is ludicrous.

    The real problem is that clerics/rogues have cried for years every time a warrior spec is better at anything, but the entire concept for warrior tanking in this game has always been versitility. So, the 'balance' has been to lower each specialized warrior tank build so that its strength is equal to the single build of the other classes. The net result has always been (this has been an ongoing battle folks, its not new now) that the concept of warriors swapping roles to maximize for this or that fight has been torn down into warriors swapping roles to hide the vulnerability, so that we can function like the other classes in their singular role. Clerics, Rogues, Im sorry, but you were originally envisioned as tanks in specialized circumstances, excelling in specialized roles, and 'in a pinch' tanks. Warriors were the master-of-all-tanking, much the same as mages have specialized usefulness in healing, but clerics are masters-of-all-healing. Since Trion has seen fit to bow to the QQ all the time, the only fix (aside from growing a pair and not letting rogues and clerics excel at EVERY role) is to remove all but one warrior rank role, make it super ridiculous powerful like clerics and rogues, and call it a day. Unfortunately as I always play these games to raid tank, I think that would just kill every ounce of faith I have in Trion, and would ruin the game for me personally. Why exactly do we need so many dps warrior souls?? range, ST, AOE. Done. Make our DPS like their tanking.

    I really wish they would simply man-up and tell rogues/clerics to stuff it, enjoy being the ultimate add tank, aux tank, or dps tank (which, BTW, should be the ROGUES claim to fame since they are more versatile dps than warriors over all anyway) and let the warriors take the front. There really is WAY more you can do with tank theory than spell mit vs phys mit, and theres plenty of room for us all in different jobs, even with Trions complete lack of understanding of tanking and unimaginative event planning. If you play a C/R tank and dont like it, guess what? you should have read the class descriptors before you picked a class.

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    I agree they missed the boat on warlord. It was our support spec, beast was our dot spec. Worked beautifully. OK, the concept worked beautifully if you didnt actually read any of the spells. Anyway, making BM support and WL instance tank never made any sense to me, and just re-illustrates Trions complete lack of concept for warriors. Changing us around at such a fundamental level, and trying what clearly amounts to shot-in-the-dark experiments is indicative of a class with no underlying plan. It was a failed experiment, give back our dot BMs, and make WL an effective support this time. Lets do this right people. Id even settle for an effective add-tank, but then the clerics would QQ Im sure.

    Personally, I was hoping something more sophisticated would be done with WL, something like a low point side-tree which supports active defensive tanking (soaks, group intercepts, agro re-channeling, etc etc), and then alternate path and high point abilities for pure support (which isnt overwritten by every other support in the game. VARIETY. support is NOT an afterthought).

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