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Thread: different tank spec

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    Rift Chaser
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    Default different tank spec

    So, I was thinking/playing around on the soul builder, about a 44 paladin / 32 Void Knight build. I know you will lose 3 damage reduction abilities from 58 Paladin, but my thinking was this - improved Void, able to keep pacts up better, and still have decent armor and resists. Just curious if the trade off of some CD's would make it worse, or just slightly more so. I have not tried this spec out, just theory crafting here.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I'd argue "no". Cooldowns are extremely powerful in both dungeons and raids-- they let you blunt the most serious damage spikes, and damage spikes happen pretty much everywhere. That's not to say that the build would be unusable, but what you're giving up isn't worth what you're gaining, in my opinion.

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    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickn4fun View Post
    So, I was thinking/playing around on the soul builder, about a 44 paladin / 32 Void Knight build. I know you will lose 3 damage reduction abilities from 58 Paladin, but my thinking was this - improved Void, able to keep pacts up better, and still have decent armor and resists. Just curious if the trade off of some CD's would make it worse, or just slightly more so. I have not tried this spec out, just theory crafting here.
    The tradeoffs are not worth it. Use the specs that are written in the guides if you want to make it easy on yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kickn4fun View Post
    So, I was thinking/playing around on the soul builder, about a 44 paladin / 32 Void Knight build. I know you will lose 3 damage reduction abilities from 58 Paladin, but my thinking was this - improved Void, able to keep pacts up better, and still have decent armor and resists. Just curious if the trade off of some CD's would make it worse, or just slightly more so. I have not tried this spec out, just theory crafting here.
    You'll have fewer CD and worse mitigation than the standard builds.

    In more detail, Improved Void is +4%/+8% (phys/spell mitigation), Light's Benediction is +7%/+18%, its not even close.

    Paladin has very little mitigation between 18 (Pacification) and 54 pts (Light's Benediction), so at 44 PL you're basically wasting a ton of points. You either go 18-21 PL or all the way to 58 PL. Anything else will be strictly inferior.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Caelem -- Warrior Tank/DPS
    Carinae -- Mage Alt
    Greybriar -- <Last Attempt> 9/9 T1, 2/4 GA, 1/4 IG, 1/5 PBB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carinae View Post
    You'll have fewer CD and worse mitigation than the standard builds.
    This is what I figured. The CD's are quite strong, I've found out tanking experts. Not trying to change the game here, just trying to think outside the box.

    Before SL, I liked a Paladin/Void Knight combo, because of the easy threat generation. But, they added a lot more spike damage, which I understand the need for CD's. It kinda adds a fun challenge to tanking now, still easy to tank, though.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickn4fun View Post
    Not trying to change the game here, just trying to think outside the box.
    My best opinion would be to leave the "thinking outside the box" part to the people who have raids on farm and are overgeared for content. They can afford to lose some mitigation and test some weird specs (ie my 2h dps VK spec, or the VK/Tempest Matriarch spec)

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    Plane Walker Perros_The_Second's Avatar
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    Never trust the guides but...

    The only hybrid built that can really compete with the 51-61 point builds is a 33Vk/22Pl/21Rv hybrid, picking all the low hanging fruit in three trees and maximizing stats. It has the 3 best warrior cooldowns but on fairly long refresh, higher stats then the high point builds, but less damage reduction and of course no heal mod. It also does much less dps then the high point builds but has decent aggro from 3 cleaves.

    The problem is: Although the hubrid is viable there is no benefit of playing this hybrid over any of the high point builds and to be honest doing a bit more dps usually than Rogue and Cleric tanks is one small reason to pick a War tank.

    (Still having ~85% shield, a full heal, and a 30% DR cooldown in one build is nice)
    Last edited by Perros_The_Second; 03-13-2013 at 09:38 AM.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perros_The_Second View Post
    Never trust the guides but...
    Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    Why is that?
    Probably one of those players who want to try their own builds out and use what feels/works for them, without a guide. I know in my guild there's a lot of people like that who just refuse to use a guide for anything (tanking, healing, DPS, even just solo/grind) and get insulted when you tell them to "Look at so-and-so's guide; they're a high-end raider", preferring instead to pick what they think will work.

    I actually do kind of miss the hybrid tanks, but at the same time I like having to go deep into a tanking tree in order to properly tank.
    Vaydron @ Threesprings

    Leave the "thinking outside the box" part to the people who have raids on farm and are overgeared for content - RoughRaptors

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayne62682 View Post
    Probably one of those players who want to try their own builds out and use what feels/works for them, without a guide.
    Possible, it just came out to be as "don't trust guides, they are wrong". Which yes, in some cases they are, but you can generally read through the comments to determine criticisms or look at the person/guild and judge from that. I know that people have corrected me at times, so every guide can be updated in some sense, but I wouldn't say it's a bad idea to trust guides.

    Oh, and lol at your new sig :-P
    Last edited by RoughRaptorsOld; 03-13-2013 at 10:47 AM.

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    Plane Walker Perros_The_Second's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    Possible, it just came out to be as "don't trust guides, they are wrong". Which yes, in some cases they are, but you can generally read through the comments to determine criticisms or look at the person/guild and judge from that. I know that people have corrected me at times, so every guide can be updated in some sense, but I wouldn't say it's a bad idea to trust guides.

    Edit: lol at your new sig :-P
    a) don't trust guides, they "can be" wrong (or old, or misleading, or not right for a particular play style, etc., etc.),
    for example I do not use fixed rotations as a War dps, I use Karuuls and time things like I am used from playing the old Pyrolocks or Pyrobinger. Fixed rotations just don't work for me in a real fight when I have to deal with interrupts in the sequence. I also set up my Pyrobinger (and Paragon) keyboard pattern like for my Riftblade. There are nuances of course but ultimately all dps souls keep up some buffs, some dots, spam some key and react to some event.

    +

    b) the only way to really understand what works is to play with abilities and read the tree. It is not rocket science. There is a reason that everyone recommends fairly similar builds, it is not just that everyone is copying each other. At the 1% level it doesn't really matter for the majority of us.

    So, my take is, great to read all the good guides, but don't just copy the macro (except for elementalist, it is really so dumb).
    Last edited by Perros_The_Second; 03-13-2013 at 10:58 AM.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perros_The_Second View Post
    stuff
    I see. I will copy macros line for line most of the time and learn the rotation on the dummies and then adapt it for disconnects and real bosses. I make sure to know what the abilities do before using them. I suppose that's more than most though and is what makes the difference between someone succeeding when reading a guide and failing when reading a guide.

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    Didn't really mean for this thread to get into a "discussion" of who's way is better, just wanted an opinion on losing some abilities. I didn't use RoughRaptor's guide on the 58 Paladin tank build, but did come up with something 99% the same. It works for me, and I can get by with pug healers most of the time.

    I have been thinking about trying the 61 VK build, just wondering how much more damage one takes. Is it a small percent, more spike damage, or just need better gear first? I have the 2 crafted tank pieces, and 3 piece expert gear.

    I appreciate feedback, and enjoy it more when its constructive.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Perros_The_Second's Avatar
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    61 Vk and 58 Pally are quite similar in mitigation. 58 Pally has better cooldowns, better block, 61 VK has a 10% heal buff, some little shields, and does more dps. Pally can reach maximum mitigation a bit faster but VK looses less mitigation out of combat. Overall, I prefer VK because of the utility of pulls, purges, cleanses, etc., I rely less on others when tanking.

    In my opinion raiding Warrior tanks should either have Pally and Reaver or VK and Reaver in their repertoire. It is good to have a Reaver ready if damage is too much for either Pally or Vk.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickn4fun View Post
    I have been thinking about trying the 61 VK build, just wondering how much more damage one takes. Is it a small percent, more spike damage, or just need better gear first? I have the 2 crafted tank pieces, and 3 piece expert gear.

    I appreciate feedback, and enjoy it more when its constructive.
    VK is (3-5%) easier to heal overall, but it is very slightly (3-5%) more likely to die from a sudden spike in damage. Paladin CDs are dramatically better than VK, but VK has more mobs control options (pull/silence/cleanse/purge).

    Paladin really shines in tank swap situations where you can use CDs while tanking. I find VK much better for dungeon runs, its much easier to grab adds, silence casters, and purge.

    Which is better depends more on the specific situation than anything, but overall they are basically even.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Caelem -- Warrior Tank/DPS
    Carinae -- Mage Alt
    Greybriar -- <Last Attempt> 9/9 T1, 2/4 GA, 1/4 IG, 1/5 PBB

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