Some upcoming Buffs and Fixes for 2.1

[Wali]

Thank you for the latest tank changes Atrius.

The changes to Paladin, Void Knight and Reaver are good ones. Managing debuffs on mobs in order to reach max tank mitigation always seemed an odd gameplay style for the tank. Support classes in raids have all the debuffing tools they need; making each individual tank cast additional debuffs always seemed redundant. Also this helps reduce the incoming damage from adds that didn't get debuffed quickly enough or at all.

The cooldown changes are also good. Much improved over what was in 1.11. Fusion of Flesh is actually reliable now and the fixes to the 1m cooldowns (30s now) look good as well.

What I don't see is any changes that address the 10% mitigation gap you mentioned. Are those changes still coming? Or are the cooldown changes supposed to make up for the gap?

As soon as the changes are on PTS, I'll be running tests, but this looks like a good start.

[Primalthirst]

Binding of Death and Power From the Masses. These two are more boring now, I agree and I am kind of bummed with the change. But the change in part is to fix several bugs that have been there forever and have only recently sprung to light. Unfortunately it was this change or leave these bugged and useless for an indeterminate length of time, probably until 2.2. So I chose this change.

I suspected as much, there wasn't any other reason I could think of. I would like to hope that the issues will continue to be worked on and these abilities will return to their current forms in the future and not just abandoned once the bandaid is applied.

[Atrius]

I suspected as much, there wasn't any other reason I could think of. I would like to hope that the issues will continue to be worked on and these abilities will return to their current forms in the future and not just abandoned once the bandaid is applied.

I would like that and will keep them on my list.

[MealRain]

OK lets get something clear here, because I'm tired of seeing this referenced all the time.

THERE IS NO 10% GAP.

When SL launched and people started doing dungeons, we experienced a noticeable difference in survivability. Atrius was made aware, and a few of the top theorycrafters and tanks set to work on discovering what exactly the problem was. Initial estimates were put out and this resulted in the 10% comment Atrius posted.

We have since discovered that this 10% mitigation gap does not exist. What does exist, is select abilities (from mobs, not tanks) that are bypassing certain key mitigation talents we have. This 10% number that Atrius posted, we assume, was simply an easy off way to give the general population an idea of the effect of these problems.

Primalthirst has built and is currently maintaining a spreadsheet comparing all viable tank specs from the 3 callings side by side. Those of you who have taken the time to look at this, will know that there is no gap, on paper, larger than a few %. During alpha, the class devs worked extensively to balance the callings tanking ability. The issue does not stem from Warriors, it stems from the mobs themselves.

TLDR: Please don't bring up the non-existent 10% gap.

[Geopenguin]

By the by...Cornered Beast breaks like 80% of the time I try and use it underwater (like in the Ashora carnage and IA quests). I tried a swimming paragon channeled hit last night on PTS (do not remember what the attack is called) and it broke too.
When I say broke, they start and immediatedly stop. Wasting the channeled attack.

[Vrab]

OK lets get something clear here, because I'm tired of seeing this referenced all the time.

THERE IS NO 10% GAP.

When SL launched and people started doing dungeons, we experienced a noticeable difference in survivability. Atrius was made aware, and a few of the top theorycrafters and tanks set to work on discovering what exactly the problem was. Initial estimates were put out and this resulted in the 10% comment Atrius posted.

We have since discovered that this 10% mitigation gap does not exist. What does exist, is select abilities (from mobs, not tanks) that are bypassing certain key mitigation talents we have. This 10% number that Atrius posted, we assume, was simply an easy off way to give the general population an idea of the effect of these problems.

Primalthirst has built and is currently maintaining a spreadsheet comparing all viable tank specs from the 3 callings side by side. Those of you who have taken the time to look at this, will know that there is no gap, on paper, larger than a few %. During alpha, the class devs worked extensively to balance the callings tanking ability. The issue does not stem from Warriors, it stems from the mobs themselves.

TLDR: Please don't bring up the non-existent 10% gap.

In all honesty blaming people for taking a dev seriously isn't exactly fair.

[Wali]

OK lets get something clear here, because I'm tired of seeing this referenced all the time.

THERE IS NO 10% GAP.

When SL launched and people started doing dungeons, we experienced a noticeable difference in survivability. Atrius was made aware, and a few of the top theorycrafters and tanks set to work on discovering what exactly the problem was. Initial estimates were put out and this resulted in the 10% comment Atrius posted.

We have since discovered that this 10% mitigation gap does not exist. What does exist, is select abilities (from mobs, not tanks) that are bypassing certain key mitigation talents we have. This 10% number that Atrius posted, we assume, was simply an easy off way to give the general population an idea of the effect of these problems.

Primalthirst has built and is currently maintaining a spreadsheet comparing all viable tank specs from the 3 callings side by side. Those of you who have taken the time to look at this, will know that there is no gap, on paper, larger than a few %. During alpha, the class devs worked extensively to balance the callings tanking ability. The issue does not stem from Warriors, it stems from the mobs themselves.

TLDR: Please don't bring up the non-existent 10% gap.

Calm down.

I'm well aware the mob abilities are broken. I was one of the first to report the bug.

Trion can fix the problem two ways:
1) Change warrior tanking
2) Change the mobs

I'm asking a very valid question: How is Trion fixing the ~10% mitigation problem (which is an average, since specific abilities are bugged)?

(Side Note: Atrius mentioned the 10% in his opening post)

[Killian26]

Possibly, please play them in PTS and see where they are when thse changes go up.

What are your thoughts on improving VK shields via having them scale off a percentage of the players endurance or hp. They're already pretty paltry as is and they are gonna become completely useless the better gear gets. Pally heals should also heal for a percentage of the players endurance or HP as well if you think about it. I say this because eventually you're gonna have to keep revisiting those talents and tweeking them to try and keep them from becoming obsolete and that's just kinda ridiculous if you ask me. Finally, Spell Destruction should probably be moved to the t8 area of the VK tree (changing out protective shield comes to mind). I get that you're trying to balance around 61 point builds but lets not lose the vision that Trion touted from the get go here, and that's variation.

Empowering Strike form WL and Weapon Fam are stacking as well essentially giving that combo a 10% AP and weapon comp boost, is this intended or an oversight?

[Bloodbourne]

Calm down.

I'm well aware the mob abilities are broken. I was one of the first to report the bug.

Trion can fix the problem two ways:
1) Change warrior tanking
2) Change the mobs

I'm asking a very valid question: How is Trion fixing the ~10% mitigation problem (which is an average, since specific abilities are bugged)?

(Side Note: Atrius mentioned the 10% in his opening post)

Changing warrior tanking is NOT A VIABLE OPTION to deal with bugged mobs/abilities. The ONLY reason Atrius, or anyone mentioned a 10% mitigation difference, is that before we understood what the problem was, it APPEARED as though we were taking 10% more dmg... FOR NO REASON. We found the reason.

If you bring up Wattior mitigation to deal with a few bugged mechanics, everything else that isn't bugged and is being mitigated properly, suddenly hits for a good chuck less than it does on anyone else.

So no, there is only ONE way to fix the issue, and that's to fix the abilities those mobs are using.

If you were "one of the first to report the bug" then you probably noticed that other mobs weren't hitting you harder, and that ONE ability stuck out like a sore thumb. If everything else is in line.... and one spot is sticking out... get the belt sander and smooth it out. You don't raise the rest of it to match a defect.

I blame Public Schools.

[Carinae]

Thanks Atrius for the update.
And thanks Primal for running the numbers.

Incoming wall of text. I'm pretty passionate about this stuff.

The New 'Viable' Specs

As a result of the proposed changes, the only specs worth considering would contain 58 Paladin, 58 Reaver or 61 Void Knight. Since VK was already 61pt is isn't really changed at all. Paladin was 54pt so it loses a little bit of mitigation. Reaver was 51pt and it loses a lot of mitigation and the Touch of Life CD.

Due to these changes all Deep Reaver builds including the best one, 58 Reaver/18 Paladin/0 Void Knight, would become essentially useless. In terms of mitigation, effective health and cooldowns they would be inferior to 58 Paladin/14 Reaver/4 Void Knight and 61 Void Knight/15 Reaver/0 Paladin in every single scenario mitigation-wise.

You are left with 61 VK /15 RV or 58 PL/14 RV/4 VK if no-one else can supply the Hit Debuff or 61 VK/15 PL or 58 PL/18 VK if someone else can provide it as your tanking options. I'd lean toward 61 VK in most situations since it brings more utility, if Devouring/Rift/Protective Shields are buffed to useable levels it will definitely be most effective option for most situations.

Other Changes Suggested For Balance
-Justicar needs a Soul Coalescence equivalent, perhaps by repurposing the relatively weak Doctrine of Glory
-Justicar could use a slight HP boost
-Warrior may need a slight Phys Mit nerf
-Void Knight and Reaver need a Non-Phys Mit buff, and in the case of Reaver a Spell Mit buff as well
-All Warrior specs still could use an HP boost on top of the existing and proposed VK one
-Healing Taken Modifiers are still far too potent, their presence needs to be reflected in lower mitigation and raised HP pools. Otherwise Reaver and Paladin will continue to be the most difficult specs to keep alive even if mitigation and HP pools are balanced.

Primal has made some excellent suggestions, especially with regards to increased healing. I would argue that Reaver and Paladin both need a +healing taken talent in their trees. I'm sure Primal is probably right about the minor mitigation tweaks.

My feedback:

Changes to self-buffs:
I'm disappointed about the change to BoD, but everything else makes sense and was really a needed change. It puts warrior mitigation on a more even basis with clerics/rogues. Especially the change to Unstable Void.
Basically, for me if it comes down to:
1) Do I always want to have this active?
2) Can I always have this active?
If yes, to both, it should be a self-buff rather than an artificial construct to gate warrior tank DPS.

Improved cooldowns:
Excellent change.

[badrsadiq]

ok Atrius, what about the Beastmaster soul? Is there any interest into taking a look at the problems it's facing regarding how all of it's damaging abilities are Melee which is a real suffer in SL encounters as we all know.

Raids are picking Archon over BM cause the BM can't bring the needed dps (melee).
I know that the beastmaster is not suppose to end up like the Ranger and what makes it special is the warrior being in mid combat with his pet hand to hand.

Therefore, what I suggest is that the following spells to be cast from the pet so a range BM is possible but may not be as effective DPS as a Melee BM:
1. Primal Lucidity
2. Flesh Rip
3. Vicious Opportunity
4. Tearing Slash

Result: only 4 out of 10 BM damage abilities can be used as a Range BM some are deep to force the player not to go 51+ points into tempest in order not to out dps a Melee BM.

[Vrab]

IMO it is this reactive reasoning that demanded we get ranged capability to cope with melee unfriendlyness that is in great part to blame for many of the current problems. Instead of asking for more and more ranged dps we should ask for melee friendlier game. And that's not class dev's job really.

Ultimately if all we can think of to solve a melee unfriendly scenario is to go ranged we'll very soon degenerate into what rogues were pre 1.11 and only ever use 1 of all our dps souls. Game should provide equal viability for both styles, yet sadly it doesn't. So imo your complaint is posted at the wrong address, it's one of those (few ) things that aren't Atrius' fault.

[badrsadiq]

IMO it is this reactive reasoning that demanded we get ranged capability to cope with melee unfriendlyness that is in great part to blame for many of the current problems. Instead of asking for more and more ranged dps we should ask for melee friendlier game. And that's not class dev's job really.

Ultimately if all we can think of to solve a melee unfriendly scenario is to go ranged we'll very soon degenerate into what rogues were pre 1.11 and only ever use 1 of all our dps souls. Game should provide equal viability for both styles, yet sadly it doesn't. So imo your complaint is posted at the wrong address, it's one of those (few ) things that aren't Atrius' fault.

I didn't say it was Atrius fault, but a somewhat of a solution is indeed in his hands. They can never change the whole content PvE experience and how unfriendly it is to melee, they can only learn from their mistake and not do that with future contents... Thus, for the moment until new contents are out, we should have a viable range capability for both tempest / BM even if it was behind melee in terms of pure dps.

[Atrius]

I am not looking at BM for 2.1.

Ok, let me address this 10% issue. We called it a 10% lower issue because as we ran tests we found a 10% reduction over the course of a test. The guys testing tanks sent me some things they found that we all believe were leading to this discrepancy. After implementing these changes I ran a test following their findings and as a Paladin, once Pacifying Strike, Light's benediction and Aggressive Block are up I am hitting the same comparable numbers as the Justicar and there is no longer a 10% issue. Since these buffs are intended to be kept up, once the initial rotation is over the Paladin should be at comparable numbers for the rest of the fight.

So in essence the 10% mitigation issue should be fixed, provided you test with a Paladin who has those three abilities active. And if you are worried about getting through that first rotation, fire off Shield Defense to cover it (Since you now have Aegis of the Light you can burn your Shield Defense and not be worried about not having a CD).

[Ardwick]

I am not looking at BM for 2.1.

Ok, let me address this 10% issue. We called it a 10% lower issue because as we ran tests we found a 10% reduction over the course of a test. The guys testing tanks sent me some things they found that we all believe were leading to this discrepancy. After implementing these changes I ran a test following their findings and as a Paladin, once Pacifying Strike, Light's benediction and Aggressive Block are up I am hitting the same comparable numbers as the Justicar and there is no longer a 10% issue. Since these buffs are intended to be kept up, once the initial rotation is over the Paladin should be at comparable numbers for the rest of the fight.

So in essence the 10% mitigation issue should be fixed, provided you test with a Paladin who has those three abilities active. And if you are worried about getting through that first rotation, fire off Shield Defense to cover it (Since you now have Aegis of the Light you can burn your Shield Defense and not be worried about not having a CD).

While you're in the warrior code, if you could put some kind of exponential equation to boost our plat earnings from mob loots, it would be highly appreciated

Hey! Doesn't hurt asking, right?