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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Some upcoming Buffs and Fixes for 2.1

  1. #406
    Champion of Telara Leif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrab View Post
    Would you consider removing kb effect from king of the hill?
    I want the knockback to stay, but only apply when you have defensive posture up, in the same way Sergeant's Order can taunt or not.

    As is, it's nice to have a knockback in the "PVP" tree.
    Waiting for Wildstar...

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leif View Post
    I want the knockback to stay, but only apply when you have defensive posture up, in the same way Sergeant's Order can taunt or not.

    As is, it's nice to have a knockback in the "PVP" tree.
    Except when you turn and try and knock a healer back into your team and it bugs out and knocks the player in the oppisite direction

  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leif View Post
    As is, it's nice to have a knockback in the "PVP" tree.
    Absolutely. As long as it's not tied to the best builder you got and you do it by default and knock stuff away from yourself every time you want to do most dmg.

    Knockback like thunderous kick is nice, knockback like koth isn't. Plus it still knocks target away from their facing, not away from you so it's even worse.

  4. #409
    Champion of Telara Leif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrab View Post
    Absolutely. As long as it's not tied to the best builder you got and you do it by default and knock stuff away from yourself every time you want to do most dmg.

    Knockback like thunderous kick is nice, knockback like koth isn't. Plus it still knocks target away from their facing, not away from you so it's even worse.
    Hence why I proposed tieing the knockback to defensive posture, which no one in a PVE or solo spec is likely to use.

    The facing issue is actually two things. First, if I hit the KB, then run through you, chances are you're going flying the opposite direction I wanted you to. It happens with all knockbacks because of some inherent latency. And then the other part you mention, which, I'm pretty sure, is more complicated than what you say. I can use a knockback on someone with their back to me, and they still go flying the direction they should. I'm fairly certain the direction is based on the angle formed between you and your target.

    These two issues are pretty much why knockbacks never work properly on a moving opponent in melee.
    Last edited by Leif; 12-05-2012 at 06:58 AM.
    Waiting for Wildstar...

  5. #410
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    It actually works that way on mobs. Mob faces tank, I'm behind it. I koth it and it flies away from the tank behind my back, nothing to do with lag.

    And needing to turn buffs on off as you want or don't want to knock back doesn't sound very good either. Just remove it's kb and add a separate kb that doesn't do more dmg than empowering strike to use when kb is needed for kb's sake.

  6. #411
    Champion of Telara Leif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrab View Post
    It actually works that way on mobs. Mob faces tank, I'm behind it. I koth it and it flies away from the tank behind my back, nothing to do with lag.

    And needing to turn buffs on off as you want or don't want to knock back doesn't sound very good either. Just remove it's kb and add a separate kb that doesn't do more dmg than empowering strike to use when kb is needed for kb's sake.
    I'll do some testing tonight, because I've punted loads of players off hills in the past in the expected trajectory, regardless of their facing.
    Waiting for Wildstar...

  7. #412
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    Just tried it at random invasions in ashora who were fighting other people/mobs, worked properly. Never worked properly in dungeons tho. Will try in the next I get into hoping I don't get votekicked. :P

  8. #413
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    Yep archive of flesh, the statue mobs before and after 1st and 2nd boss. Flew away from direction they faced each time, including sideways from my point of view once as I wasn't directly behind but at some 4 o'clock. No clue why, and no clue why it worked ok on open world mobs I tried.

    Regardless, built in kb on a builder that's used in rotation is bad.

  9. #414
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    stuff
    Agreed, don't revert us back to spotter's order please.

  10. #415
    Prophet of Telara Lewin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Incoming wall of text. I'm pretty passionate about this stuff.

    My initial response to these changes was surprisingly intense. I wasn't a fan of almost all of these proposed alterations, for a number of reasons. I don't really feel many changes to Warriors are needed outside of bug fixes so our mitigation actually works and something to address Paladin AoE application of Light's Benediction and Pacification. Since then I've taken a few hours to muse over them, run the math for the new specs and reach some conclusions based on these proposed changes.

    I'm aware these changes are in no way complete, I'm simply hoping to state what the consequences of these current changes will be so that Atrius can understand where to go from here.


    Ability Changes

    PALADIN
    -Pacification and Light's Benediction no longer being debuffs
    This is a shame. While it does solve the issue with debuffing packs of mobs I feel it could have been done much more creatively and in a way that is more engaging for the player. As it stands playing Paladin is horribly boring, hit Aggressive Block, Pacifying Strike and Light's Benediction once each per 15s. Spend the other 70% of GCDs hitting random buttons without any impact on performance, pretty anaemic. A much more interesting solution would be to have Light's Decree or Sweeping Strike spread existing Pacification and Light's Benediction debuffs on the target to nearby enemies, in the same way Frozen Wrath and Strike of the Maelstrom functions for Shaman.

    -Aegis of the Light replacing Shield of the Light
    58pt is the right place for the new ability, but the wrong ability to be replacing. Conceptually Shield of the Light is a great ability and could be very useful in dungeons or open-world content, it just suffers because of its positioning in the tree, no current build should go over 54pts. A great idea would be to replace Light's Vengeance with Shield of the Light and add Aegis of the Light at 58pts. Light's Vengeance itself is fairly useless, currently Paladin is power starved if it attempts to use all 3 on-Block reactives so this being the least useful, isn't even used by a lot of tanks, its removal would barely be noticed.

    REAVER
    -Binding of Death becoming a self-buff
    This is just tragic and completely unneccesary. Maintaining Binding of Death on multiple targets at once occurs completely passively currently and no-one in the history of the universe has ever had trouble keeping it on multiple targets. I cannot for the life on me see why this needed to be made a self-buff. All it does is reinforce the complete irrelevance in using your DoTs. If anything Binding of Death should be made specific to Flesh Rot or Necrotic Wounds since those abilities currently serve close to no purpose.

    -Crest of Consumption and its buff to Soul Feast
    If this is a multiplicative buff to Soul Feast then /snore. 120% of practically nothing is still practically nothing. If however this is an additive buff to make your DoTs heal you for 23/26% of damage then this is awesome! It finally adds relevance to maintaining your DoTs outside of having a compulsive disorder, something which is needed.

    -Removing Plague Eater
    This is, I feel a mistake, as a result of these class changes the only viable* Reaver build, 58 RV/18 PL/0 VK is left with only 2 CDs, Crest of Entropy and Crest of Consumption. I think that's a fine place to be. Except because everyone else has too many it leaves Reaver a long way behind every other tanking soul. I'd suggest replacing either Stumbling, Decaying or Creeping Corruption with Plague Eater, leaving Reaver with 3 cooldowns. The Corruptions don't currently do a whole lot, you can safely ignore them and suffer no noticeable drop in performance. While you're at it perhaps make one that isn't removed also apply the Reaping Touch Armor debuff to give an AoE option.

    -Power From The Masses being passive
    Again, a boring solution. Simply upping the proc rate would have been much more preferable. Not a big change functionally, but passive mitigation without at least some element of chance is just ehhhh.

    VOID KNIGHT
    -Unstable Void becoming a self buff
    Similar to Binding of Death I cannot understand why this is happening, it's already AoE so applying to multiple targets isn't an issue. If it was a targeting issue then you could make it an instant cast AoE centered on the player or something a little less boring than a self buff.

    The New Mitigation Cooldowns

    Aegis of Light, Crest of Consumption and re-purposed Power Shield
    For the record, I was one of the people strongly campaigning for a Soul Coalescence nerf since its incredible power has made Riftstalkers inarguably the best tanking soul in almost every conceivable category. I suggested if it were not nerfed then both Warriors and Clerics needed an equivalent ability to help mitigate damage spikes on a frequent basis. While some action was necessary, this response saddens me deeply.

    Equivalent abilities should be exactly that, equivalent, not identical. These new abilities, since it seems Soul Coalescence isn't going away, should fulfill the same function but also reflect the individual style and flavour of their respective soul. Aegis of Light could be a reactive heal that heals the player for 50% of the next hit (excluding DoT ticks.) Crest of Consumption could be a 4-5% debuff per Death DoT on the enemy, or failing that a 20% damage debuff for all enemies within 10m that are affected by Necrotic Wounds/Flesh Rot. Power Shield should actually be an Absorb, perhaps ~20-30% of player Max HP, whatever is roughly in line with the damage reduction provided by 4% DR. Obviously Power Shield wouldn't be perfectly equal against all attacks, but that doesn't matter as long as it's ballpark.

    The New 'Viable' Specs

    As a result of the proposed changes, the only specs worth considering would contain 58 Paladin, 58 Reaver or 61 Void Knight. Since VK was already 61pt is isn't really changed at all. Paladin was 54pt so it loses a little bit of mitigation. Reaver was 51pt and it loses a lot of mitigation and the Touch of Life CD.

    Due to these changes all Deep Reaver builds including the best one, 58 Reaver/18 Paladin/0 Void Knight, would become essentially useless. In terms of mitigation, effective health and cooldowns they would be inferior to 58 Paladin/14 Reaver/4 Void Knight and 61 Void Knight/15 Reaver/0 Paladin in every single scenario mitigation-wise.

    You are left with 61 VK /15 RV or 58 PL/14 RV/4 VK if no-one else can supply the Hit Debuff or 61 VK/15 PL or 58 PL/18 VK if someone else can provide it as your tanking options. I'd lean toward 61 VK in most situations since it brings more utility, if Devouring/Rift/Protective Shields are buffed to useable levels it will definitely be most effective option for most situations.

    Other Changes Suggested For Balance
    -Justicar needs a Soul Coalescence equivalent, perhaps by repurposing the relatively weak Doctrine of Glory
    -Justicar could use a slight HP boost
    -Warrior may need a slight Phys Mit nerf
    -Void Knight and Reaver need a Non-Phys Mit buff, and in the case of Reaver a Spell Mit buff as well
    -All Warrior specs still could use an HP boost on top of the existing and proposed VK one
    -Healing Taken Modifiers are still far too potent, their presence needs to be reflected in lower mitigation and raised HP pools. Otherwise Reaver and Paladin will continue to be the most difficult specs to keep alive even if mitigation and HP pools are balanced.

    Conclusion
    -More changes are definitely needed and presumably are being worked upon.
    -A lot of these proposals are just plain boring. Sorry, but it's true. They make playing Warrior tanks less engaging and thus less enjoyable.

    I would like to say that the concept of Soul Coalescence and these similar abilities is great. I know many people enjoy active mitigation a lot more than passive mitigation as it gives the player greater control over their own survivability instead of relying purely on their gear and healers. I'd eventually like to see buffs like this that are ~20% mitigation for ~4s on a 10s cooldown, with content designed appropriately of course. Give us real second by second control over our fates, bring some skill into tanking beyond positioning mobs and herding cats in LFD.


    TLDR: Read it, you might learn something

    Thank you for your communication with the community Atrius, everyone appreciates it
    I agree on a lot of the points here, espically lights decree spreading the pally debuffs since I suggested that like a week or two ago. As far as the vk one, I am ok with it being a buff, there is si much other stuff to do with vk that it can get a bit hectic although I would have been ok with it being a large radius debuff like champion marks, the frontal only maid it kind of useless on fights like overseer in tower where you have to spend most of the fight kiting. Also the duration could be longer, buy since its a self buff now its whatever.
    As far as binding of death I don't really see the point in the change, just need to make sure flesh rot applies it (it didn't at one point and haven't checked to see if that vhangd or not) and then even on fights where you have to kite you can still keep it up as necessary.
    In terms of CDs, pally almost has too many now, and the new one seems week for how deep in the tree it is although on a 30 sec CD it could be useful, just wish it was something a little more interesting instead of just another damage reduction.
    As far as energy concerns, pally still needs help as its reactives still run you out of power rediculously fast. And since a large part of pallys agro and damage comes from them, just not using them isn't an option. Overall I think we are moving in the right direction, just hope we get there sooner rather then later.
    Ortoun 60 Warrior Tank 4/4 TDQ 4/4 FT 5/5 EE 1/4 HM Shatterbone
    Lewin 50 Rogue retired alt/craft bot

  11.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #416
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    Just wanted to touch on a couple changes.

    Binding of Death and Power From the Masses. These two are more boring now, I agree and I am kind of bummed with the change. But the change in part is to fix several bugs that have been there forever and have only recently sprung to light. Unfortunately it was this change or leave these bugged and useless for an indeterminate length of time, probably until 2.2. So I chose this change.

    Please keep the feedback coming.

  12. #417
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    More changes incoming for 61 Paragon?
    what is this I don't even

  13.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pines View Post
    More changes incoming for 61 Paragon?
    Possibly, please play them in PTS and see where they are when thse changes go up.

  14. #419
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptorsOld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    Possibly, please play them in PTS and see where they are when thse changes go up.
    Any ETA of the recent warrior changes on PTS?
    Last edited by RoughRaptorsOld; 12-05-2012 at 11:06 AM.

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    Any ETA of the recent warrior changes on PTS?
    Thought Atrius said in one of his earlier posts that he would feed the changes to PTS incrementally to test them in stages?
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