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Thread: Riftstorm needs balancing...counter needed..

  1. #436
    RIFT Guide Writer Sekhmet The Fierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygfa View Post
    Going to start a thread with SS proof of warriors needing adjustment. Margarine, you're welcome to visit.

    Basically SS of every WF that I remember to SS. Sorted by KBs. Take for what you will
    Just to point out, a screenshot of every WF you 'remember' to capture is still prone to a thing called Confirmation Bias, and because of that, I'm not really confident in its veracity as whatever proof you might claim.
    -------

    Personally, I still think the issue is not so much RB/Champ being OP but more Non-Physical damage being OP. I still find it difficult to recommend a Physical Damage build for PvP considering the amount of mitigation it passively gets to work through compared to Non-Physical damage. Until we see mitigation between Physical and Non-Physical damage normalised and reworked, the disparity in effectiveness of Physical Damage builds and Non-Physical ones like RB/Champ will remain.
    "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
    He who fights with Monsters should look to it that He himself does not become a Monster. And when you gaze long into an Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygfa View Post
    Going to start a thread with SS proof of warriors needing adjustment. Margarine, you're welcome to visit.

    Basically SS of every WF that I remember to SS. Sorted by KBs. Take for what you will
    You are taking screen shots to try and prove warriors are overpowered? Try not to be so biased. The screen shot thing was tried before btw and it proved warriors require more heals to do the same damage as ranged. You have to look at the kb/damage in the context of healing taken. This little crusade by you does not seem to be going well.

    Your goal is to influence others. I had some guildies (who never read the forums) check out this thread and it was met with general disgust towards your cause. They were not all warriors. Not sure what to tell you at this point. Every thing you have said has been refuted. Saying the samethings over and over again does nothing and just proves you can be wrong multiple times.

    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.

    Goodbye. Enjoy the other game.

  3. #438
    Plane Touched Souldancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygfa View Post
    Going to start a thread with SS proof of warriors needing adjustment. Margarine, you're welcome to visit.

    Basically SS of every WF that I remember to SS. Sorted by KBs. Take for what you will
    You know, doing that with his name just makes you look juvenile.

  4. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Souldancer View Post
    You know, doing that with his name just makes you look juvenile.
    Did you even read any of his posts?

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    You are taking screen shots to try and prove warriors are overpowered? Try not to be so biased. The screen shot thing was tried before btw and it proved warriors require more heals to do the same damage as ranged. You have to look at the kb/damage in the context of healing taken. This little crusade by you does not seem to be going well.

    Goodbye. Enjoy the other game.

    Ok dude, I'm going to explain this to you, as simply as I can. Most healers in WF's aren't stupid. We know that warriors are wrecking balls so we adjust our healing appropriately. I know for me (when I am in senticar or puri or sent) I focus on keeping the warriors alive, because I know they do the most damage. The really good warriors know that the healers pay extra attention to them and make sure to keep the healers alive.

  6. #441
    Shield of Telara Cygfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet The Fierce View Post
    Just to point out, a screenshot of every WF you 'remember' to capture is still prone to a thing called Confirmation Bias, and because of that, I'm not really confident in its veracity as whatever proof you might claim.
    -------

    Personally, I still think the issue is not so much RB/Champ being OP but more Non-Physical damage being OP. I still find it difficult to recommend a Physical Damage build for PvP considering the amount of mitigation it passively gets to work through compared to Non-Physical damage. Until we see mitigation between Physical and Non-Physical damage normalised and reworked, the disparity in effectiveness of Physical Damage builds and Non-Physical ones like RB/Champ will remain.
    it would be confirmation bias if it wasn't every (or nearly every, without any selection criteria) warfront I'm in. The only bias would be the rank bracket, since I'm now grouping with the higher ranks. Someone still at sub-39 is welcome to perform a similar experiment and share their data, I'm actually curious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.

  7. #442
    Shield of Telara aabuster1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.
    QFT

    Majorin: I always wondered - Do you play any other class besides warrior at level/Rank 50?

  8. #443
    Shield of Telara Cygfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.
    sweet, new sig quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.

  9. #444
    Ascendant Aguni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    You are taking screen shots to try and prove warriors are overpowered? Try not to be so biased.
    You did the same thing in regards to mages and rogues in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    The screen shot thing was tried before btw and it proved warriors require more heals to do the same damage as ranged.
    um, no it didn't/
    You ooked at two screenshots and said "SEE SEE!? WARRIORS NEED MORE HEALING!"
    Mayhap the reason they take in more healing, is because they survive longer than other callings which allows them to take in more healing.

    Screenshots don't work because they can be interpreted in any number of ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    You have to look at the kb/damage in the context of healing taken. This little crusade by you does not seem to be going well.
    Nerf stormcaller in PvP.

    damage and KB says nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post

    Your goal is to influence others.
    That is the point of a debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    I had some guildies (who never read the forums) check out this thread and it was met with general disgust towards your cause.
    Hey...my friends agree with me.
    BIG SURPRISE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.
    Guys guys, ranged damage is OP.
    marksman deal more damage.
    Mages deal more damage.
    Pocket healing a warrior is not as good as pocket healing other callings.
    Warriors are balanced when they have CC, high mobility, high burst damage and high utility!

    Nerf ranged damage instead! FOCUSING IS OP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Goodbye. Enjoy the other game.
    IRONY!


    Edit: On another note, has anyone noticed how Majorin doesn't actually attempt to refute the oppositions argments, he more or less just calls them wrong then veils it with attacks on the individual?
    Just saying.
    Last edited by Aguni; 08-01-2012 at 08:56 AM.

  10. #445
    RIFT Guide Writer Sekhmet The Fierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygfa View Post
    it would be confirmation bias if it wasn't every (or nearly every, without any selection criteria) warfront I'm in. The only bias would be the rank bracket, since I'm now grouping with the higher ranks. Someone still at sub-39 is welcome to perform a similar experiment and share their data, I'm actually curious.
    Allow me to quote the wiki article:

    People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.
    It still applies in your case, and if you technically want anything constituting as proof, you'll need to provide something along the lines of math (breakdown of abilities, GCDs, DPS and compare that between other common builds) and more than just your personal experience in terms of warfront scoreboards. You'd need to effectively control all the potential variables present in any warfront (differences in gear, team composition, team coordination, etc), and use a large data sample of that in order to statistically map the effectiveness of callings/etc. That to me would constitute as proof. What you've provided to me is mostly anecdotal evidence which you've tried to interpret in a biased way.

    It is no secret that fully geared characters with lots of PA will do better in full DPS specs, backed by pocket healers. This concept is not exclusive to warriors. Are you asking to nerf pocket healers?
    Last edited by Sekhmet The Fierce; 08-01-2012 at 08:58 AM.
    "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
    He who fights with Monsters should look to it that He himself does not become a Monster. And when you gaze long into an Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  11. #446
    Shield of Telara Cygfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet The Fierce View Post
    Allow me to quote the wiki article:



    It still applies in your case, and if you technically want anything constituting as proof, you'll need to provide something along the lines of math (breakdown of abilities, GCDs, DPS and compare that between other common builds) and more than just your personal experience in terms of warfront scoreboards. You'd need to effectively control all the potential variables present in any warfront (differences in gear, team composition, team coordination, etc), and use a large data sample of that in order to statistically map the effectiveness of callings/etc. That to me would constitute as proof. What you've provided to me is mostly anecdotal evidence which you've tried to interpret in a biased way.

    It is no secret that fully geared characters with lots of PA will do better in full DPS specs, backed by pocket healers. This concept is not exclusive to warriors. Are you asking to nerf pocket healers?
    I've done no interpretation of my own except 'sort by KB' and press Prt Sc.

    I'm going to download mythbusters, and run that as well. Perhaps I'll also attempt to do some kind of statistical treatment of the results of my screenshots as well.

    As for your latter point: yes, this is fully valid, but why would it be valid for any class any differently than with a warrior? By that logic, ANY class with max XYZ should do EQUALLY well in a warfront with a healer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.

  12. #447
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    It's interesting how now when people bring up actual screenshots, now we have a "confirmation bias". So, is this not applicable when warriors present the same argument?

    I'd really just like to agree that screenies etc have nothing to do with balance.
    ~Quiescent

  13. #448
    RIFT Guide Writer Sekhmet The Fierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygfa View Post
    I've done no interpretation of my own except 'sort by KB' and press Prt Sc.
    You are ignoring the context in which you are presenting these screenshots. Topping KBs is indicative of a whole load of things, not exclusive to just certain builds being OP. There's also damage received and heals received data present which reveals that the ones topping KBs were getting effectively supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cygfa View Post
    As for your latter point: yes, this is fully valid, but why would it be valid for any class any differently than with a warrior? By that logic, ANY class with max XYZ should do EQUALLY well in a warfront with a healer.
    That is exactly the logic I'm putting across, because I've seen nothing that says otherwise. And if you are allowed to use your personal experiences, then allow me to use mine in saying that ever since I start playing Rift (about a year now, save a couple of breaks here and there), I've seen plenty of examples of calling combinations that were *devastating*. These, however, tend to change once the meta-game adjusts to them and figures out effective counters. Nothing new.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    It's interesting how now when people bring up actual screenshots, now we have a "confirmation bias". So, is this not applicable when warriors present the same argument?

    I'd really just like to agree that screenies etc have nothing to do with balance.
    Personally, I'd still say the same to other warriors doing the same thing. It is still an example of confirmation bias.
    Last edited by Sekhmet The Fierce; 08-01-2012 at 09:20 AM.
    "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
    He who fights with Monsters should look to it that He himself does not become a Monster. And when you gaze long into an Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  14. #449
    Prophet of Telara Morwath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonRage View Post
    @ What spaceboots said, I would love to have more specs to use in general for pvp. I used to have this problem for pve and raids but now its not much of a issue. But with pvp you NEED: LW + RB utility to make an impact. Ideally i'd like to use Para on WF, but its not that viable. I could use it, but i wouldn't get far.
    Its just not true. Really.
    I play lately Para/Champ/RB(11 for fiery/icy/earth bursts) and its pretty amazing, but not as much OP as RB/CH. You still can be in top3 with kbs in WFs, but for many players build without Avatar of Water, Rift Surge, Riftwalk, Riftstorm and Planar Blade or BoeA may be just unplayable.

  15. #450
    Shield of Telara Cygfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet The Fierce View Post
    You are ignoring the context in which you are presenting these screenshots. Topping KBs is indicative of a whole load of things, not exclusive to just certain builds being OP. There's also damage received and heals received data present which reveals that the ones topping KBs were getting effectively supported.
    Which is fully visible as well? Are you asking me to sort by each column and SS for each sorting?
    For at least the top 10 KB players, you can see all their other stats in the other columns if that's what you mean. If you're asking me to do actual math... I suppose I can start a spreadsheet if it will get the point across.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet The Fierce View Post
    That is exactly the logic I'm putting across, because I've seen nothing that says otherwise. And if you are allowed to use your personal experiences, then allow me to use mine in saying that ever since I start playing Rift (about a year now, save a couple of breaks here and there), I've seen plenty of examples of calling combinations that were *devastating*. These, however, tend to change once the meta-game adjusts to them and figures out effective counters. Nothing new.
    Yes there are definitely other callings being 'devastating' and I see this also. The problem is their representation is much lower than equally or more 'devastating' warrior specs. It's also been quite some time since the last patch so I think most people have 'adjusted' or at least figured out the current metagame for the most part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet The Fierce View Post
    Personally, I'd still say the same to other warriors doing the same thing. It is still an example of confirmation bias.
    are you confusing 'scientific method', which requires controlled experiments to support a hypothesis, and 'confirmation bias' which is cherry picking existing evidence to support an opinion?

    If not, give me an example of an experiment that isn't 'biased', in your opinion, for this particular hypothesis

    edit: looks like I'm doing math homework, damn you!
    Last edited by Cygfa; 08-01-2012 at 09:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Keeping a thread going with half truths, ignorance, bias, and an inability to understand even the most basic elements of pvp is not going to get anything nerfed.

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