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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by psionicalpha View Post
    To the folks who are upset by the possibility of the RW spec no longer being top dog - why are you afraid of change? Isn't doing the same exact thing over and over for months in a row a little tedious? Personally I welcome getting something new every few months to play with - it keeps the game fresh and exciting. Sure if everything gets reduced to 1112 as your top dps spec, that would be kind of boring, but realistically people will come up with spec's that aren't going to do that. Personally I think change is good - otherwise the game gets stale and you have nothing to look forward to.
    This is not change in a good way. The RW spec is an example of synergy between the souls and should be promoted. The devs do not need to redesign the Warrior class every four months. Removing the RW spec from a list of options to the Warrior class is the wrong direction. The problem is most don't see it. Also, whether you use a two-hander and hit a few different abilities then RW you are still attacking with a two-hander in melee range. Okay.. so for diversity lets throw on two weapons and hit a few different abilities in melee range. The problem with warriors is they have no ranged dps soul and they should. We have four tank souls and the rest melee dps souls so no variety in play style or options.

    So in the end who cares.... If I need to change my rotation around but still get the same damage with the same weapon in melee range what does it matter. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Finally, why the hell are the devs spending all this time to tweak a class, make changes, when in the end it will have no impact on the Warrior play style. Power Strike -> Frenzied Strike -> 'Insert Here" -> Finishe. Well, it can if they gimp Warrior damage which is just plain stupid.
    Last edited by Majorin; 02-20-2012 at 09:33 AM.

  2. #302
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    Why are people so against learning a new spec? IMO, Warriors have been lucky to have their best AoE and ST spec in the 38 Para 2H for this many patches.

    Other than for short periods of time for Sabdancer and SC/ELE, no other class had 1 spec that ruled it all. That is the case now and likely to be the same for Warriors in v1.8.

    Champ and by extension 2H builds is heavily geared towards AoE, always have been the case since beta. The soul synergy system created the almighty 38 / 26 / 2 spec which as great as it is, really limited options when it came to competitive DPS.

    New patch would open many opportunities for theory crafting on DPS (remember Kutsuu's old theory crafting post?) which I personally really look forward too as it keeps the calling fresh.

  3. #303
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    Since Riftblade is a 2H spec because frankly you wouldnt run anything other than paragon with DW, then please concider removing the "Physical" from Deadly Strikes.

  4. #304
    Sword of Telara MealRain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    This is not change in a good way. The RW spec is an example of synergy between the souls and should be promoted.

    It is synergy to a point, it is also gimped for being almost twice the investment in para as champ.

    The devs do not need to redesign the Warrior class every four months. Removing the RW spec from a list of options to the Warrior class is the wrong direction. The problem is most don't see it. Also, whether you use a two-hander and hit a few different abilities then RW you are still attacking with a two-hander in melee range. Okay.. so for diversity lets throw on two weapons and hit a few different abilities in melee range. The problem with warriors is they have no ranged dps soul and they should.

    No. Get over yourself. Did you make a warrior telling yourself "Oh I'm definitely going to mash stuff with my melee weapons.. from RANGE!" No, you would have rolled a rogue or a caster. Stop using this as an excuse in this BS. Ranged options like we have now are fine.

    We have four tank souls and the rest melee dps souls so no variety in play style or options.

    Again, wrong. Sure the tank souls have been homogenized, but they still have their own quirks. Beastmaster, Riftblade, Paragon, Champion all play the same? Are you playing Rift? Seriously, they each play differently.

    So in the end who cares.... If I need to change my rotation around but still get the same damage with the same weapon in melee range what does it matter. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

    Hard to follow this one. What's the problem? No one cares? Nope. Same damage? Maybe. But if you are crying about doing the same damage across all specs, you're in the wrong place. This is what we are encouraging.

    Finally, why the hell are the devs spending all this time to tweak a class, make changes, when in the end it will have no impact on the Warrior play style. Power Strike -> Frenzied Strike -> 'Insert Here" -> Finishe.

    Because our core mechanics are shot, and are being re-animated.

    Well, it can if they gimp Warrior damage which is just plain stupid.
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    This is not change in a good way. The RW spec is an example of synergy between the souls and should be promoted. The devs do not need to redesign the Warrior class every four months. Removing the RW spec from a list of options to the Warrior class is the wrong direction. The problem is most don't see it. Also, whether you use a two-hander and hit a few different abilities then RW you are still attacking with a two-hander in melee range. Okay.. so for diversity lets throw on two weapons and hit a few different abilities in melee range. The problem with warriors is they have no ranged dps soul and they should. We have four tank souls and the rest melee dps souls so no variety in play style or options.

    So in the end who cares.... If I need to change my rotation around but still get the same damage with the same weapon in melee range what does it matter. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Finally, why the hell are the devs spending all this time to tweak a class, make changes, when in the end it will have no impact on the Warrior play style. Power Strike -> Frenzied Strike -> 'Insert Here" -> Finishe. Well, it can if they gimp Warrior damage which is just plain stupid.

    You picked the wrong class......

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra245 View Post
    Since Riftblade is a 2H spec because frankly you wouldnt run anything other than paragon with DW, then please concider removing the "Physical" from Deadly Strikes.
    Not necessarily. Empowered Strikes makes DW pretty strong with RB - I believe back when 29rb was semi-viable in PvE, most showed that DW was better than 2H. Not sure if that's still the case or not though.
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  7. #307
    Champion of Telara Methadras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psionicalpha View Post
    To the folks who are upset by the possibility of the RW spec no longer being top dog - why are you afraid of change? Isn't doing the same exact thing over and over for months in a row a little tedious? Personally I welcome getting something new every few months to play with - it keeps the game fresh and exciting. Sure if everything gets reduced to 1112 as your top dps spec, that would be kind of boring, but realistically people will come up with spec's that aren't going to do that. Personally I think change is good - otherwise the game gets stale and you have nothing to look forward to.
    Change simply for the sake of change is not a good idea. Change if it has a purpose, is valid, and has value I would welcome. I'm still not convinced that these AP scale changes as defined by Atrius/Trion are how it should be done. I'm sure it's nice to want to tinker with specs and play styles, but the bottom line is this. This game runs on end game content and end game raiding, gear acquisition, and top roll specs. Everything else is icing and fluff. Trion knows this and that's why you see them trying to fix a class they have broken for a long time through numerous patches.

    It's not the roles/specs that make the game stale. It will be on Trion to make sure content conforms to those roles/specs to keep the game original, functional, and relevant. It needs to continue to offer players something of value.

  8. #308
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    If you're against the RW build and don't understand why so many of us want it, then you don't understand why it was good.

    DW = lolgearing
    BM = lolpet that doesn't scale
    RB = 1/2 button macros

    The only thing left for a non 1 or 2 button macro dps spec is paragon. And the only viable 2h build involving paragon is some kind of RW build. So if you want 1 button macros where everyone does the same dps regardless of skill (and only gear matters), then feel free to advocate against RW.


    But regardless, none of this matters. We have to actually test our changes. For those who think change for the sake of change is a good thing, then you're obviously not progression oriented. Complete build overhauls are going to hurt warriors for 2 or 3 months after 1.8. Chances are we won't have our top builds and rotations figured out for ID. We won't perform at our best because we won't have any experience with the new builds. Rogues and Mages will be. And if I'm saying this as someone who knows the ins-and-outs of warriors and puts a lot of time into practicing, you can be sure that lesser progressed warriors are going to have an even harder time.

    But again, none of this matters. We actually have to see the changes. There's going to be a lot of broken stuff. That's why Atrius is pushing the pts patch so early.
    Last edited by Rizaz; 02-20-2012 at 10:18 AM.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    If you're against the RW build and don't understand why so many of us want it, then you don't understand why it was good.

    DW = lolgearing
    BM = lolpet that doesn't scale
    RB = 1/2 button macros

    The only thing left for a non 1 or 2 button macro dps spec is paragon. And the only viable 2h build involving paragon is some kind of RW build. So if you want 1 button macros where everyone does the same dps regardless of skill (and only gear matters), then feel free to advocate against RW.


    But regardless, none of this matters. We have to actually test our changes. For those who think change for the sake of change is a good thing, then you're obviously not progression oriented. Complete build overhauls are going to hurt warriors for 2 or 3 months after 1.8. Chances are we won't have our top builds and rotations figured out for ID. We won't perform at our best because we won't have any experience with the new builds. Rogues and Mages will be. And if I'm saying this as someone who knows the ins-and-outs of warriors and puts a lot of time into practicing, you can be sure that lesser progressed warriors are going to have an even harder time.

    But again, none of this matters. We actually have to see the changes. There's going to be a lot of broken stuff. That's why Atrius is pushing the pts patch so early.
    Agreed, here's to hoping the patch hits the PTS in the next 24-48 hours...
    what is this I don't even

  10. #310
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    I just wish that they'd leave things alone. We constantly have to change and revise things. So stupid.

  11.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #311
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    This is a reply to address a few different worries.

    First let me address Rising Waterfall specs. Once again I will state that we do not intend to ruin this spec, the intention is to have multiple builds that can match the glory and power that this build was achieving.

    The problem in doing that however is that this build was doing in some cases, 500-600 DPS more than other specs out there. When we started looking for ways to boost other specs up to reduce this incredibly large gap we discovered that we would either need to focus in areas that this spec did not touch, which meant very high end Paragon and Champion, or it meant we had to reduce the power of this spec to be closer to the other builds and then build all of them up together. So we identified unique aspects of this spec that were bloating it's numbers and we reduced the effectiveness of those features in a way that did not impact other specs that were already underperforming. By bringing it down to the levels of other specs, it allowed us to then bring all of them up to where it was before. The end result being that it is still doing the same damage it was before, but now other specs are also coming in at that same level, leaving players with more options.

    Now as I mentioned before, these first run of numbers are rough, so you may notice other builds now doing better in some circumstances or worse. As soon as we get these up on PTS, please play with them, test your numbers and see what's what. if RW is just not comparable to where it used to be, then please report that and we will address it.

    Second, let's talk about items. We intend Warriors to be getting 2 handers, and 1 handed weapons based on their preference. So do not feel bad about rolling on a 1 hand sword in a raid or a dungeon, you should be rolling on them, it was only our balance issues that were making Dual Wield not viable and so you were not trying to get these items. Now daggers on the other hand, you should not be rolling on. We intentionally did not give you PA specs for them to help make it clear that Daggers are intended for Rogues to play with. if you find yourselves wanting to roll on Daggers, please mention it, we should look into that.

    Third, I want to address the continued concerns about Fiery Burst. We did a balance pass on the damage done by just about every Warrior ability and the Bursts were probably the largest changes. The first thing that happened is that they now have appropriate AP scaling, the second thing that changed is that previously they did not gain increased Weapon Damage modification and now they gain Attack Power Modification, and the third thing that changed is that their damage value was reduced based on the fact that they are off the Global Cooldown. Once again these numbers are rough and so you may find that the changes are too much, or maybe not enough. The end result though should now be that you are not pigeonholed into using the Bursts, you should be using them because you want to, not because you have to.
    Last edited by Atrius; 02-20-2012 at 11:01 AM.

  12. #312
    Shield of Telara Kaybriar's Avatar
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    I am excited to try out these changes and provide feedback. Can you tell us when you expect them on the PTS?
    Kaybye ~

  13. #313
    Rift Disciple InuNoTaishou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post

    Second, let's talk about items. We intend Warriors to be getting 2 handers, and 1 handed weapons based on their preference. So do not feel bad about rolling on a 1 hand sword in a raid or a dungeon, you should be rolling on them, it was only our balance issues that were making Dual Wield not viable and so you were not trying to get these items. Now daggers on the other hand, you should not be rolling on. We intentionally did not give you PA specs for them to help make it clear that Daggers are intended for Rogues to play with. if you find yourselves wanting to roll on Daggers, please mention it, we should look into that.
    I roll and buy GMoA leather DPS gears because they reward better stats (Attack power and Physical Crit) than Plate gears. The high amount of dex and the 'bonus' Attack power is far greater than the GMoA 'High' strength plate gears give. Take the GMoA Plate DPS helmet & boots and compare that with GMoA leather DPS boots and helm.

  14.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by InuNoTaishou View Post
    I roll and buy GMoA leather DPS gears because they reward better stats (Attack power and Physical Crit) than Plate gears. The high amount of dex and the 'bonus' Attack power is far greater than the GMoA 'High' strength plate gears give. Take the GMoA Plate DPS helmet & boots and compare that with GMoA leather DPS boots and helm.
    Leather Armor Versus Plate is a separate issue than we are trying to handle right now. We would like Warriors to not roll on Leather, but as I have said before, we are taking this all one step at a time.
    Last edited by Atrius; 02-20-2012 at 11:10 AM.

  15. #315
    Rift Disciple InuNoTaishou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post


    Second, let's talk about items. We intend Warriors to be getting 2 handers, and 1 handed weapons based on their preference. So do not feel bad about rolling on a 1 hand sword in a raid or a dungeon, you should be rolling on them, it was only our balance issues that were making Dual Wield not viable and so you were not trying to get these items. Now daggers on the other hand, you should not be rolling on. We intentionally did not give you PA specs for them to help make it clear that Daggers are intended for Rogues to play with. if you find yourselves wanting to roll on Daggers, please mention it, we should look into that.
    .
    Will Off hand weapon DPS, be included in the damaging abilities for dual wields? For example, on Live - Non- paragon abilities mostly accounts for main hand weapon damage and ignores the off-hand. (Take Stormblade on Live for example)
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