AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

[mistacrowley420]

The problem is that it is already in the hands of the only people that matter: the devs. It was done in the only way that matters for cross class balance: at equal PA and equal gear in a full raid setting. There is little point in most of the parses that have been posted here except for intra-class comparison. I'm sure that several guilds will do parses on the PTS with equal gear and equal PAs in full raid settings and these will also be submitted to the devs.

The net result will hopefully be targets buffs/debuff of various classes to get the DPS in line across classes. The biggest outlier right now btw is cleric DPS specs that are between 900-1000 DPS behind warriors.

Me posting parses here won't really accomplish anything. If you are curious, get your guild on PTS, get in equiv gear and settle upon equiv PAs, and parse in a full raid with all buffs/debuffs and all consumables. Then submit the full logs of the parses along with snaps of the raid DPS breakdowns, decided gear level (T1, T2, T3 BiS), and standardized PA level (T1, T2, T3) to the devs. The more people parsing on PTS in equiv gear levels and equiv PA levels with a full raid and submitting the full logs to the devs, the better. Whether you end up also posting your parses here or not doesn't really matter, this is just a forum and anything without a full combat log isn't that useful overall.

Please ignore this guy if you're looking for useful information. I don't believe he's an actual warrior, if you look into his posts you can find him arguing that a raid of 20 warriors can clear HK; and that warriors can raid heal. He is spreading false information for the only reason I see being he's another class, and he's afraid if we are balanced with other classes he will be out dpsed.

[Kiika]

Why should DW be 300 dps above any 2 hander builds especially in a game where st dps is all people care about and whatever spec is doing the best st dps people will use regardless of aoe. Trion might as well scrap 2 handers all together cause i guarantee you if DW stays above 2hander in st dps you wont see any warriors with 2 handers. How about just making them both viable in st dps instead of gimping the other i mean with DW you already get tons of mobility and you dont have to worry about disconnects.

[WilkesW]

Why should DW be 300 dps above any 2 hander builds especially in a game where st dps is all people care about and whatever spec is doing the best st dps people will use regardless of aoe. Trion might as well scrap 2 handers all together cause i guarantee you if DW stays above 2hander in st dps you wont see any warriors with 2 handers. How about just making them both viable in st dps instead of gimping the other i mean with DW you already get tons of mobility and you dont have to worry about disconnects.

Its not that DW should be higher in ST, but to make one outshine the other when it comes to AoE/ST and the other way around so both will actually be wanted in raids. This will make the warriorclass have much more options then it had before and it will make the game more fun for warriors who are not afraid of a little change.
Either this or make both equal, wich is just to much work and in the end it's impossible to make them within 50-100 dps of eachother when it comes to both AoE and ST.

[Valmina]

Why not make both equally good so you let the weapon drops decide whatever build you choose?

This.

That would be in an ideal world.

Thanks to Val's RW spec, having both 2H and 1Hs were necessary to max DPS, both in AoE and ST.

I suppose that getting those 2H for AoEing will be too far deep in the instance to be competitive with mages or rogues.

But this is all supposition and I would not be surprised that it would eventually be that way.

[mhaze]

Why should DW be 300 dps above any 2 hander builds especially in a game where st dps is all people care about and whatever spec is doing the best st dps people will use regardless of aoe. Trion might as well scrap 2 handers all together cause i guarantee you if DW stays above 2hander in st dps you wont see any warriors with 2 handers.

That's just what i've been thinking. Looks like 2h are out of the picture once again. IMO ST is the thing that matters. Using 2h only for trash or very heavy add fights makes me sad

[jerwel]

I suggest people reset their PA and not even use it to test with, and anyone with obvious PA in their test spec be chased out of the topic. The standard test spec should be:

Empty trinket slot
0 PA

Trinket doesn't need to be empty, but it should just by a simple stat boost one, no rng trinkets. I said this about 100 pages back, but was basically brushed off. To get accurate and understandable results, it is always best to remove as many variables as humanly possible. Science 101.

Its not that DW should be higher in ST, but to make one outshine the other when it comes to AoE/ST and the other way around so both will actually be wanted in raids. This will make the warriorclass have much more options then it had before and it will make the game more fun for warriors who are not afraid of a little change.
Either this or make both equal, wich is just to much work and in the end it's impossible to make them within 50-100 dps of eachother when it comes to both AoE and ST.

The problem with your idea is each of them DO shine if different aspects. Champ specs obviously have their nice aoe. Para specs have the edge in any fight that has disconnects or mobility components, ESPECIALLY with the wotm changes. To further your problems your idea would REQUIRE warriors to get an additional set of weapons to be competent in both damage types, something no other class must do. Dual wield and 2h should be a conscious choice of the player and them knowing the pros and cons of each set up.

While other classes may be jealous of a warriors ability to do both aoe and st in one spec, they are also capable of many things that we are not, so it is not possible to do an apples to apples comparison with them to us. If they want us to be just like them, by all means, give us ranged dps specs, heals, and support souls, otherwise each class has their own little corner on different things.

[WilkesW]

The problem with your idea is each of them DO shine if different aspects. Champ specs obviously have their nice aoe. Para specs have the edge in any fight that has disconnects or mobility components, ESPECIALLY with the wotm changes. To further your problems your idea would REQUIRE warriors to get an additional set of weapons to be competent in both damage types, something no other class must do. Dual wield and 2h should be a conscious choice of the player and them knowing the pros and cons of each set up.

While other classes may be jealous of a warriors ability to do both aoe and st in one spec, they are also capable of many things that we are not, so it is not possible to do an apples to apples comparison with them to us. If they want us to be just like them, by all means, give us ranged dps specs, heals, and support souls, otherwise each class has their own little corner on different things.

I would never prioritise range possibilities over thousands of AoE dps when choosing my preferred weaponry (since you cannot expect to be geared in both DW and 2h ID-weapons the first cpl of months)
As i recall the 41RB 2h spec is the leading one when talking about 2handed builds atm. 41RB also has range with spears and bursts.

[WilkesW]

Edit: I mean IF they were equal in ST

[gfiz]

That would be nice, but it would require a reworking of DW... The AOE is dwarfed by 2h.

What about DW's ability to do more range dmg? ST & AOE aren't the only aspects in the equation imo.

[WilkesW]

Suggestion: make POTH+POTR+POTW+POTT melee req abilities and keep the rest as it is. Leave the range abilitites in RB tree. Or make them have same dmg in melee and when used in ranged reduce the dmg significant.
This would make everyone happy I guess..?

[Dire]

Look, lets be honest here. It's not just 2h that people want to have as the best ST spec, it's Champion. And it's understandable, too: Champion is the iconic warrior soul, so that's what many warriors want to play.

The trouble is that Champion is also the soul with the best AoE potential and Trion's made it pretty clear they want to separate the best ST and the best AoE.

Personally - as someone who strongly prefers to DW - I have zero problems with Champion being ahead of DW during AoE fights, so long as DW ST isn't subpar. But rogues, clerics and mages aren't going to be fine with one spec having it all. There will be no end of QQ, and unless the devs take the stand expressed by someone a few pages ago - that it's OK for warriors to have the best ST and the best AoE in a single spec because we're severely limited in options comparing to other classes - Champion is going to remain behind other souls on ST no matter how much the warriors don't like it.

[Dire]

Suggestion: make POTH+POTR+POTW+POTT melee req abilities and keep the rest as it is. Leave the range abilitites in RB tree. Or make them have same dmg in melee and when used in ranged reduce the dmg significant.
This would make everyone happy I guess..?

Not by a long shot. Our ranged abilities are already gimp as hell comparing to other classes and in need of improvement - and here you are, suggesting to gimp them some more? Why would anyone be okay with that?

I think the trade off of AoE vs mobility/ranged (2h vs DW) is a fair one. The only problem is that the rest of the callings don't care about those nuances. If one of our specs has both the best AoE and and the best ST the QQ storm will make sure it doesn't last (and by 'the best' I mean 'compatible with other callings'). I have no idea how the devs will resolve that while keeping the warrior community happy.

[Sebb]

Look, lets be honest here. It's not just 2h that people want to have as the best ST spec, it's Champion. And it's understandable, too: Champion is the iconic warrior soul, so that's what many warriors want to play.

The trouble is that Champion is also the soul with the best AoE potential and Trion's made it pretty clear they want to separate the best ST and the best AoE.

Personally - as someone who strongly prefers to DW - I have zero problems with Champion being ahead of DW during AoE fights, so long as DW ST isn't subpar. But rogues, clerics and mages aren't going to be fine with one spec having it all. There will be no end of QQ, and unless the devs take the stand expressed by someone a few pages ago - that it's OK for warriors to have the best ST and the best AoE in a single spec because we're severely limited in options comparing to other classes - Champion is going to remain behind other souls on ST no matter how much the warriors don't like it.

It's not about champion being "iconic". It's about Riftblade being slow as hell to play. I'd rather DW and be subpar at aoe that SCs take care of anyhow than have to play a 41/23/2 spec that puts me to sleep. 51 champ is different in that it plays quicker than all other 2h builds short the parachamp we've been playing for the past 8 months.

And lets be honest, there will be no end to the rogue QQ no matter what. It's what they do best.

[Sebb]

The problem is that it is already in the hands of the only people that matter: the devs. It was done in the only way that matters for cross class balance: at equal PA and equal gear in a full raid setting. There is little point in most of the parses that have been posted here except for intra-class comparison. I'm sure that several guilds will do parses on the PTS with equal gear and equal PAs in full raid settings and these will also be submitted to the devs.

The net result will hopefully be targets buffs/debuff of various classes to get the DPS in line across classes. The biggest outlier right now btw is cleric DPS specs that are between 900-1000 DPS behind warriors.

Me posting parses here won't really accomplish anything. If you are curious, get your guild on PTS, get in equiv gear and settle upon equiv PAs, and parse in a full raid with all buffs/debuffs and all consumables. Then submit the full logs of the parses along with snaps of the raid DPS breakdowns, decided gear level (T1, T2, T3 BiS), and standardized PA level (T1, T2, T3) to the devs. The more people parsing on PTS in equiv gear levels and equiv PA levels with a full raid and submitting the full logs to the devs, the better. Whether you end up also posting your parses here or not doesn't really matter, this is just a forum and anything without a full combat log isn't that useful overall.

TL;DR - I'm making stuff up so I won't post anything.

And LOL that you're suddenly worried about cleric dps, but it is ok in 1.7 for some reason.

[Dire]

It's not about champion being "iconic". It's about Riftblade being slow as hell to play. I'd rather DW and be subpar at aoe that SCs take care of anyhow than have to play a 41/23/2 spec that puts me to sleep. 51 champ is different in that it plays quicker than all other 2h builds short the parachamp we've been playing for the past 8 months.

I understand where you're coming from and agree wholeheartedly. But there are heaps of warriors who love the slow big hits and who would shout that they didn't roll a warrior to do magic damage if RB were the best 2h ST, or that they didn't roll a warrior to have a pet if it were BM, or whatever else along those lines.

Either way, at the end of the day it's kind of irrelevant. The bottom line is that unless Champion AoE capabilities are neutered I really don't see Champion ST being made compatible with the rest. I sincerely hope I am wrong but it's unlikely given the direction the devs seem to want to take.

And lets be honest, there will be no end to the rogue QQ no matter what. It's what they do best.

Yep. And Trion has a stellar record of giving in to QQ.