AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

[Rizaz]

So I know this is late but I wanted to bring to peoples attention something that is not right.. If you reaad the above post rizaz has stated that rogues/mages were at the lower end of the number's he stated in the thread.. Also These parses were done with t3 PA.. Any raid buff parse that Paper linked was to my knowledge none of us had t3 PA specked into. Also It was brought to my attention last night by a reliable source who was looking through this warrior thread and noticed how this parse was inflated.. This parse rizaz linked does not add up to a "reality" raid buffed parse.. If you look at his parse he only has 35 coda of jeopardy's actually going off.. No illuminate or spotter's order in there at all. His parse was 5mins long.. Now to my knowledge so,illuminate,and coda do damage every 3 secs when u attack (internal cooldown or proc) now if a parse is 5 mins long then that should account for 100 coda of jeopardy ticks. A real encounter raid buff parse in Hk would include no more than 1 chloro for wild growth( which is a 12 second duration for 10% more damage, which scales very well with warriors might I add).. Now considering they had only 1 chloro that would mean wild growth would go off every minute for 12 secs leaving out 4 coda ticks.. so after five minutes that's 20 ticks gone so coda ticks should be at 80.. this is reasonable.. If you look at Rizaz's parse this is not the case.. They used 3 chloro's in this parse which would definitely inflate warrior dps numbers. 3 chloro's running wild growth would take away 60 ticks of coda which would explain only 35 ticks of coda. So what I am trying to say is that All the parses Paper linked were not inflated and showed warriors were even with all other classes back when the 51champ/15rb was good. Rizaz's parses all had warrios in t3 pa's idk if any mages or rogues were but his parse was 4600 which he said was low line for rogues and mages.. which would mean still equal in dps.. So therefore.. Atrius went off one guilds inflated parses and nerfed a spec that was inline with all other classes.. which means he wouldn't have to be doing all this extra work atm.. At the time 51champ/15rb was good.. was more than likely where most of the classes should have been.

Also note when Rizaz's says 4900 parse with max PA's he is referring to there warrior that had Max t3 PA's at the time.. I am fairly certain there rogues/mages weren't specked into t3 PA for the parse.. i could be wrong.

You're making a whole lot of assumptions there. We only had two chloros and I've already said the 4900 parse was a fluke. Everyone had t3 PAs at the time of the parse. There was nothing "inflated" about it. They were real raid composition parses with our BIS live gear with the PAs available to us from our live characters (except the one 4900 parse).


Not only that, but chloro's scale the same for everyone. And our missing jeopardy procs would have also scaled the same for everyone.

[gfiz]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem isn't the testers, it the entire methodology. Print screen parses in this thread should hold no weight whatsoever in determining anything. Controlled and verifiable testing is the only true way to test. It is asinine to throw any credence into anything posted here, and I mean that as no offense to those honestly trying to put forth the time and effort. It is a flawed process.

If the goal is to use free labor in the form of subscribers, it can still be accomplished. Select a handful of people here, put them in a private forum where epeen is out the window, and tell them exactly what you want to see Atrius, and give them the exact gear and group/raid composition you want to see them test, and then let them test it. But atleast come up with resutls that you can verify before using to influence the direction of the class.

[intrinsc]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem isn't the testers, it the entire methodology. Print screen parses in this thread should hold no weight whatsoever in determining anything. Controlled and verifiable testing is the only true way to test. It is asinine to throw any credence into anything posted here, and I mean that as no offense to those honestly trying to put forth the time and effort. It is a flawed process.

If the goal is to use free labor in the form of subscribers, it can still be accomplished. Select a handful of people here, put them in a private forum where epeen is out the window, and tell them exactly what you want to see Atrius, and give them the exact gear and post and group/raid composition you want to see them test, and then let them test it. But atleats come up with resutls that you can verify before using to influence the direction of the class.

You can't blame the people testing. They ask us to test with the tools they give us. We go, parse, we post. What they should do is give us guidelines. Which buffs do you want up? Which abilities do you wanna see? etc. Gear shouldn't really be specified because there are so many variations, but you can balance around what MOST people will use in a raid situation.

[Zahne]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem isn't the testers, it the entire methodology. Print screen parses in this thread should hold no weight whatsoever in determining anything. Controlled and verifiable testing is the only true way to test. It is asinine to throw any credence into anything posted here, and I mean that as no offense to those honestly trying to put forth the time and effort. It is a flawed process.

I agree. I'm a little surprised there seems to be a lack of a formalized test process that looks at balance across a number of different scenario's.

For example:

Solo
Group
T1 (Low gear / Mid gear / Best gear)
T2 (Low gear / Mid gear / Best gear)

Balancing a class around having BIS gear is a terrible idea, and will likely result in unhappy players that don't have what they need to be competitive.

I'm not saying "Normalize everyone". Rather, I'm saying "You have your tiers, they are pretty visible. Setup your test environment and ensure balance across those tiers".

[gfiz]

You can't blame the people testing. They ask us to test with the tools they give us. We go, parse, we post. What they should do is give us guidelines. Which buffs do you want up? Which abilities do you wanna see? etc. Gear shouldn't really be specified because there are so many variations, but you can balance around what MOST people will use in a raid situation.

and if you re-read, i said i don't blame anyone but the methodology set forth by Atrius himself. And gear at the end of the day is irrelevant. You have two stats. Crit and AP. Testing various build at different degrees is a very simple prospect if given the time. Atrius could create testing "Helms of Doom" with various stats on it (1400AP/1200 crit for example), and have you wear nothing else, just to create relevant baselines of results based on various stat combo's...but again, at the end of the day, we're more or less talking two stats. Anything from procs is outside the relevance of class testing. Those would be under the concern of the gear team.

[intrinsc]

and if you re-read, i said i don't blame anyone but the methodology set forth by Atrius himself. And gear at the end of the day is irrelevant. You have two stats. Crit and AP. Testing various build at different degrees is a very simple prospect if given the time. Atrius could create testing "Helms of Doom" with various stats on it (1400AP/1200 crit for example), and have you wear nothing else, just to create relevant baselines of results based on various stat combo's...but again, at the end of the day, we're more or less talking two stats. Anything from procs is outside the relevance of class testing. Those would be under the concern of the gear team.

I agree with you. At this point every build being tested on PTS is being balanced around having a Golem Inductor, for example, which I think is a huge mistake.

[mattya802]

Not only that, but chloro's scale the same for everyone. And our missing jeopardy procs would have also scaled the same for everyone.

Exactly. I don't get why everyone chose to ignore this for the last 4 pages.

[Sebb]

Not only that, but chloro's scale the same for everyone. .

Quoting because people need to get past this.

[intrinsc]

I don't understand why the chloro's flat damage increase has to do with stacking an additional chloro or to explain the missing CoJ ticks.

[bitnine]

I don't understand why the chloro's flat damage increase has to do with stacking an additional chloro or to explain the missing CoJ ticks.

Physical Damage Taken Debuff 1

• Mage Chloromancer Wild Growth
• Rogue Bard Coda of Jeopardy

[Rizaz]

You're making a whole lot of assumptions there. We only had two chloros and I've already said the 4900 parse was a fluke. Everyone had t3 PAs at the time of the parse. There was nothing "inflated" about it. They were real raid composition parses with our BIS live gear with the PAs available to us from our live characters (except the one 4900 parse).


Not only that, but chloro's scale the same for everyone. And our missing jeopardy procs would have also scaled the same for everyone.

I just checked out the parse, this was actually with 3 chloros, my bad.

I have two other parses exactly like it with our Sicaron comp (1 chloro) where I parsed 4677 and 4616. Nit picking at chloros for our third parse (which was intended) is moot.

[intrinsc]

I just checked out the parse, this was actually with 3 chloros, my bad.

I have two other parses exactly like it with our Sicaron comp (1 chloro) where I parsed 4677 and 4616. Nit picking at chloros for our third parse (which was intended) is moot.

Now, the 3 chloro's makes more sense.

[intrinsc]

Physical Damage Taken Debuff 1

• Mage Chloromancer Wild Growth
• Rogue Bard Coda of Jeopardy

Still, why would they do 2-3 chloros and attempt to pass it as "realistic"? I could see on a fight like early Sicaron, perhaps even Grugonim, but shouldn't be used to balance builds. That's what I meant. Even two chloro's I wouldn't use

[Rizaz]

Just look at rizaz's parse and my explanation on it and how they got such high parses.. it's all there in his parse he linked.

I didn't want to be the one to say it and then all of Voodoo comes on here posting that it was a false claim. I had to wait for someone else to reveal it.

Riz and atrius do you have comment? It seems there is a possibility warriors were unfairly adjusted downward.

The bm bug where it only affects the party they're in instead of raid, and all this stuff about wild growth.

What paper said is true.. But the bigger picture is that they inflated the parses with 2 more chloro's, also they were specked heavily into t3 pa.. If paper didn't have fierce strikes missing he might have been 200 dps ahead.. but easy fix is move fierce strike to 4 points in bm or lower damage on fierce strike.. The fact that Atrius went off one guilds Inflated parses is the issues regardless whether Paper's parse was misinterpreted or not. Also like to add how rizaz's parse without fierce strike and him using power strike was indeed in line with mages/rogues parses.. So therefor a nerf to fierce or move to 4 points in bm was obviously a easy fix at the time rather than a complete overhaul.

ps.. If you do not think atrius solely went off voodoo's parses your wrong.. He said himself other guilds (only guild he was talking about was voodoo) were parsing 300-500 higher than anyone else.. And they hugely inflated there parse with a total of 3 chloro's and t3 PA which no one else had when they were doing full raid buffs.. and FYI no full raid buff will include 3 chloro's and t3 pa doesn't exist anymore on PTS..

Basically I have two parses with 1x chloro (our sicaron comp) and another with 3x chloros. I linked ypu the 3x chloro parse, but the other two say almost exactly the same thing. Furthermore, wildgrowth scales the same for everyone. Complete non-issue.

[Steelwind]

Basically I have two parses with 1x chloro (our sicaron comp) and another with 3x chloros. I linked ypu the 3x chloro parse, but the other two say almost exactly the same thing. Furthermore, wildgrowth scales the same for everyone. Complete non-issue.

Except Atrius balanced 1.8 based on 3x chloro parse.