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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PVP Changes for Physical DPS and Warrior Power regeneration feedback

  1. #31
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    PS: Wear more leather now pls kthxbye

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    The two concerns listed so far seem to be.

    1) What about Rogue Armor Penetration? Won't this make it better?

    2) How can this be a fix? Why didn't you just increase Physical DPS?

    So let me address both of those real quick.

    1) Rogue Armor Penetration affects Armor Value, not Armor Mitigation. This means that the Armor Value number you have on your character sheet gets reduced. The way we handle Armor Value in Rift is that as the value gets higher, it adds less and less value to actual armor mitigation. This value is not being changed at all, what is being changed is the mitigation percentage that is increased by Armor Value. the Armor Value is still being reduced by the same amount it used to be by armor penetration abilities. The outcome is slightly different but in none of our testing did Armor Penetration abilities ever gain enhanced effectiveness from this system.

    2) Because the core of this problem was in the Armor Mitigation and how much it increases as you gain new sets of armor, each time we release new armor with higher armor values, this problem was just going o get worse. So if I added new Physical DPS onto Warrior abilities and talents, then in a couple months I would just have to increase it again. The problem would continue and get worse and require more and more extreme enhancements to balance it. Which would in turn have a severely negative impact on those wearing armor values that do not increase as much, such as Mages. So this problem had to be fixed before anything else was ever done.

    I mentioned in this chat a few months ago that I was going to be making small changes, steps in the right direction for getting these changes handled. This is one of those small steps. If this is not enough, and there is still an issue with Physical DPS then we will make further changes at an ability or talent level. And we will make those changes knowing that we have a stable base from which to work.
    but according to the notes you only nerfed armor on high armor characters like tanks, so physical dps was thus only "increased" against pvp tanks and not any other classes/specs, is this not accurate? Based on this "fix" nothing changes in terms of me using RB based specs vs 51 champ since it has no affect on 99% of the targets ill be facing in pvp. Oh jee let me switch to physical dps build now so i can kill worthless tank spec warriors, i mean wtf dude.
    Last edited by Rottweiler-STi; 01-20-2012 at 04:27 PM.

  3.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear_on_the_job View Post
    Wait...what elemental defenses on gear?
    Precisely.

  4. #34
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    Yea i am a bit boggled by this change as well, there is already a problem about our class needing healers to survive now it seems healers wont even be able to keep us up. I dont know if these changes are just set up now for the inevitable warrior survivability fix coming in pvp or what but it just doesnt make sense to me right now. I just hope the dps trade is enough for me to kill bunny hopping clerics and mages before they kill me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    2) Because the core of this problem was in the Armor Mitigation and how much it increases as you gain new sets of armor, each time we release new armor with higher armor values, this problem was just going o get worse. So if I added new Physical DPS onto Warrior abilities and talents, then in a couple months I would just have to increase it again. The problem would continue and get worse and require more and more extreme enhancements to balance it. Which would in turn have a severely negative impact on those wearing armor values that do not increase as much, such as Mages. So this problem had to be fixed before anything else was ever done.

    I mentioned in this chat a few months ago that I was going to be making small changes, steps in the right direction for getting these changes handled. This is one of those small steps. If this is not enough, and there is still an issue with Physical DPS then we will make further changes at an ability or talent level. And we will make those changes knowing that we have a stable base from which to work.
    Perhaps I'm just a bit dense, but what you're saying basically is that you're trying to completely normalize armor, so that the "weaker" mages who wear cloth won't be as hampered...by wearing cloth. In other words, what i'm hearing is, "Your armor has the potential to make you too powerful, so away it goes". Nevermind the fact that we have to do everything within 20m vs. rogues/clerics/mages from 35m, or that they self heal better than we do, or that they've got more utility/flexibility.

    Again, perhaps I've missed the point, but it really seems like you've chopped out the only legs warriors really had to stand on; our survivability.
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  6. #36
    RIFT Guide Writer Sekhmet The Fierce's Avatar
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    I tested the changes to energy regen on PTS. A little too much considering no matter what I did, I couldn't put a big enough dent in my energy bar with the RW spec. But then again, at 1070 crit with Syvlan Greatblade and Grim Satisfaction up all the time, it just ends up a bit overkill.

    I don't know what to say here. Considering I was applying FB with Frenzied Strike every time, and trying to maximise everything I could to reduce my energy bar with as much oGCD burst as I could, I would expect that without Tablets or Fervor, I'd go power starved within a 2 minute period. Then again, I wasn't spamming Mighty Blow (no HK crystal yet), so I wasn't doing something silly as using an AoE ability for ST damage.

    I think problems with energy comes from quirky soul and ability combinations requiring warriors to use power-hungry abilities for long duratiomn fights. Right now, energy regen is a touch too much as you might not even need Grim Satisfaction any more. Planar Blade only becomes important for Riftwalk, not necessarily for the extra power.

    That said, this could also help push warriors to stack more AP as energy regen becomes less of an issue. However, that would still require AP to scale well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rottweiler-STi View Post
    but according to the notes you only nerfed armor on high armor characters like tanks, so physical dps was thus only "increased" against pvp tanks and not any other classes/specs, is this not accurate? Based on this "fix" nothing changes in terms of me using RB based specs vs 51 champ since it has no affect on 99% of the targets ill be facing in pvp. Oh jee let me switch to physical dps build now so i can kill worthless tank spec warriors, i mean wtf dude.
    I mean, what do you want? 1.3 paragons?
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  8.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rottweiler-STi View Post
    but according to the notes you only nerfed armor on high armor characters like tanks, so physical dps was thus only "increased" against pvp tanks and not any other classes/specs, is this not accurate? Based on this "fix" nothing changes in terms of me using RB based specs vs 51 champ since it has no affect on 99% of the targets ill be facing in pvp. Oh jee let me switch to physical dps build now so i can kill worthless tank spec warriors, i mean wtf dude.
    Regardless of how the patch note is interpreted, this change affects all Callings. Mages, Rogues, Clerics, and Warriors will see impact from this. The goal being that if you use a Physical attack against someone, you should see a very similar damage done to them, as if you used a similar Elemental attack. Regardless of the armor type they are equipped with. The end result being that playing your champion spec should be doing damage on par with your Riftblade spec whereas before you were doing significantly less damage as a Champion.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    The two concerns listed so far seem to be.

    1) What about Rogue Armor Penetration? Won't this make it better?

    2) How can this be a fix? Why didn't you just increase Physical DPS?

    So let me address both of those real quick.

    1) Rogue Armor Penetration affects Armor Value, not Armor Mitigation. This means that the Armor Value number you have on your character sheet gets reduced. The way we handle Armor Value in Rift is that as the value gets higher, it adds less and less value to actual armor mitigation. This value is not being changed at all, what is being changed is the mitigation percentage that is increased by Armor Value. the Armor Value is still being reduced by the same amount it used to be by armor penetration abilities. The outcome is slightly different but in none of our testing did Armor Penetration abilities ever gain enhanced effectiveness from this system.

    2) Because the core of this problem was in the Armor Mitigation and how much it increases as you gain new sets of armor (each time we release new armor with higher armor values) this problem was just going to get worse. So if I added new Physical DPS onto Warrior abilities and talents, then in a couple months I would just have to increase it again. The problem would continue and get worse and require more and more extreme enhancements to balance it. Which would in turn have a severely negative impact on those wearing armor values that do not increase as much, such as Mages. So this problem had to be fixed before anything else was ever done.

    I mentioned in this chat a few months ago that I was going to be making small changes, steps in the right direction for getting these issues handled. This is one of those small steps. If this is not enough, and there is still an issue with Physical DPS then we will make further changes at an ability or talent level. And we will make those changes knowing that we have a stable base from which to work.
    No Atrius what you said was that you would be making changes to/fixing how phys dps was calculated in PVP to boost effectiveness. What you did was nerf armor mitigation.

    Apple != Orange

    So again, is this buff going to apply to OTHER classes as well? are you gonna start say mage armor DR at like 10% to make it even? never mind the fact that we still have no resistance to their damage type?

  10. #40
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    Rank 8 cleric.

    5421 armor
    45.47%
    37.44% in pvp

    So, yes, this will help us kill clerics, etc. Especially now that they don't have detaunt.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    Regardless of how the patch note is interpreted, this change affects all Callings. Mages, Rogues, Clerics, and Warriors will see impact from this. The goal being that if you use a Physical attack against someone, you should see a very similar damage done to them, as if you used a similar Elemental attack. Regardless of the armor type they are equipped with. The end result being that playing your champion spec should be doing damage on par with your Riftblade spec whereas before you were doing significantly less damage as a Champion.
    im not "interpreting" anything read it for yourself:

    * Characters with excessively high armor mitigation for their Calling at level 50 will have the effectiveness of that mitigation reduced in PvP. The net result is increased Physical DPS in PvP as compared to live against highly equipped targets. The mitigation reduction is shown in the tooltip when mousing over your Character Sheet's armor stat.

    which mage have excessively high armor mitigation?

    If it is an across the board change to all callings/specs the wording in that note is horrid at best.
    Last edited by Rottweiler-STi; 01-20-2012 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    Regardless of how the patch note is interpreted, this change affects all Callings. Mages, Rogues, Clerics, and Warriors will see impact from this. The goal being that if you use a Physical attack against someone, you should see a very similar damage done to them, as if you used a similar Elemental attack. Regardless of the armor type they are equipped with. The end result being that playing your champion spec should be doing damage on par with your Riftblade spec whereas before you were doing significantly less damage as a Champion.
    thats exactly how i hope its gonna work out

  13. #43
    RIFT Guide Writer Sekhmet The Fierce's Avatar
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    Losing a bit of armour in order to help Physical Damage in PvP is a step in the right direction. Armour means nothing towards non-physical damage anyway (still be squishy against DPS blue-bars), and those that were relying on Physical Damage were still having a hard time against certain specs with high armour values. This won't make tanks incredibly weaker, but will make the mitigated values for physical damage more inline to mitigated non-physical damage.

    Tanks will still be soaking up the hits like pros.
    "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
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  14.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaspurtz View Post
    thats exactly how i hope its gonna work out
    if you test it and it is not working that way, please let me know. I will continue making changes until I get as close to that goal as possible.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    Regardless of how the patch note is interpreted, this change affects all Callings. Mages, Rogues, Clerics, and Warriors will see impact from this. The goal being that if you use a Physical attack against someone, you should see a very similar damage done to them, as if you used a similar Elemental attack. Regardless of the armor type they are equipped with. The end result being that playing your champion spec should be doing damage on par with your Riftblade spec whereas before you were doing significantly less damage as a Champion.
    So if your in a sense making physical damage be on par with elemental damage than we should be critting upwards to 2-3k like mages can with our physical damage?? well maybe not critting that much but we should be in that ball park?? If so than i green light these changes

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