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Thread: Is there anyone here that agrees our tanking specs should trions focus right now?

  1. #16
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    I think it's pretty simple. If Trion does all the tank souls at once, they make a lot of Clerics, Rogues and Warriors happy. If Trion focuses only on Warrior DPS, they only make Warrior DPS happy.

    And honestly, it's a toss-up as to what needed it more. Warrior tanks had one good spec for every situation, Warrior DPS has one good spec for every situation.

    Warrior PVP is not that bad. I'm still ending most matches with 7-1 or 10-3 on the spec in my sig, which will be getting even stronger when 1.6 comes...

  2. #17
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by PFalcon View Post
    They can see the future and cross-team patterns we can't.

    If they plan to roll out major low-man content akin to T1 and T2, they need to equalize rogue and cleric tanking images compared to warriors first. Tanks are the undisputed bottleneck for such a content, and warriors would enjoy too much privilege. Privilege leads to manipulation and behaviors that shouldn't be tolerated.

    They see when raid teams fail and why across the board. Raid teams stalling out and breaking apart is a MAJOR rift issue that is killing their retention rates. Tanks failing is the prime suspect. My guess is that this focus on tanks also addresses some common ways raid teams statistically fail.

    They may want to eliminate warrior's superior tanking image if it means salvaging their superior meleeing capability. After all, most of us are willing to give that up anyway.
    I honestly think this covers it pretty well. With new content coming up and new dps thresholds being achieved, tanks needed a buff across the board. Otherwise they would never have kept up with the content.

    Let's not forget that a lot of tanks were having trouble with the new dps thresholds from rogues and mages. Say what you will about them, but it happened. This was a needed change, and I'm not surprised they prioritized it.

    Let's also not forget that Trion has repeatedly stated that PvP is an afterthought and meant to be entirely separate from what this game is meant to offer. That might come across as unfortunate to those who prefer it over everything else the game has, but Trion has never suggested that they wanted people to focus on PvP over everything else. With that in mind, it makes sense that they chose to address tanking with this patch.

  3. #18
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    How is open world PVP handled on PVE servers?

    PVP viability is a huge issue if you're on a PVP server. Just leaving town you can get ganked. PVP can happen anywhere.

    You wanna do invasions for inscribed? Guess what, you'll probably get PVP'd without a big group.
    You wanna do DRR? Guess what, on your way there you got PVP'd.
    You wanna collect fartifacts, farm witchweave, etc? Guess what, while farming you got PVP'd.
    You wanna do quests? Dude, you got PVP'd.
    (etc.)

    You have to be ready to fight at any time. It limits the specs, and gear you can run in the open world. That is, unless you just happen to like soul walking. OoOooOooo ooOoOOoooo ooOoOo (Casper will translate for you: "Whee!")

    I was running DRRs with a guildy just the other day. Was in tank mode with PVE gear. Guess what? Thinking I was safe with a raid "nearby", I still got PVP'd. Even if my raid had been there, a nasty thing to do to people doing DRR's is dogpile their tank/offtank, and watch the DRR wipe everyone.
    Last edited by Hodor; 11-08-2011 at 01:47 PM.

  4. #19
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    I'm not saying pvp isn't important (I've generally played on PvP servers, so I know what you're talking about) just that Trion has maintained that it doesn't really matter to them. Hence their patch history.

    As for PvE servers, almost no one flags for it, so it's basically a non-issue.

  5. #20
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm saying, with PVP servers, it should be a priority to keep things fair and balanced for all.

  6. #21
    Telaran Hellshiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PFalcon View Post
    They see when raid teams fail and why across the board. Raid teams stalling out and breaking apart is a MAJOR rift issue that is killing their retention rates. Tanks failing is the prime suspect. My guess is that this focus on tanks also addresses some common ways raid teams statistically fail.
    I can narrow that point down to exact source for you: Trigger-happy DPSers. To fix Bulwif's post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulwif View Post
    If you are having threat issues in live your DPSers are bad.
    To point the issue out fully...
    Quote Originally Posted by Draagh View Post
    But I have big threat issues in live. Our top mage does insane dps and it is really hard to keep agro off him - especially during kiting phases - so some threat changes were needed
    That mage should stop hitting things so hard, or wait a bit longer before going all out. There is a time and place for DPS application at insane rates. Kiting phases are not it. Sadly, DPSers have forgotten the tank is there for a reason: Take the hits others can't.

    In the end, the exact same reasons Warriors were knee-jerk hotfixed is the reason tanks are getting stupid-threat levels: Bad players blaming everything other then themselves for failure. The same people pulling threat without care in raids are the same people that stand in melee with robes; this guy.
    Llamalove - 70 Cleric
    Fusepopper - 65 Mage
    Sionon - R40(P7) Warrior
    Quote Originally Posted by PFalcon View Post
    It's an axe. It's a warrior. This isn't that hard to get right. Axe---->Face---->Ouch. Do it.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellshiver View Post
    In the end, the exact same reasons Warriors were knee-jerk hotfixed is the reason tanks are getting stupid-threat levels: Bad players blaming everything other then themselves for failure. .
    Not true at all. There's a fundamental scaling problem. Our threat is based on damage, as we get better gear our mitigation and HP increases, but our DPS only increases by a small amount. As DPS get better gear their threat goes up and there's no way a tank can maintain threat. Telling DPS to back off prolongs the problem some, but it doesn't change the fundamental issue.

    There are two ways to balance this:
    1) Put +crit on tanking plate. OR
    2) Scale threat off a tank stat like endurance.
    Last edited by Carinae; 11-09-2011 at 01:04 PM.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Caelem -- Warrior Tank/DPS
    Carinae -- Mage Alt
    Greybriar -- <Last Attempt> 9/9 T1, 2/4 GA, 1/4 IG, 1/5 PBB

  8. #23
    Telaran Hellshiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carinae View Post
    Not true at all. There's a fundamental scaling problem. Our threat is based on damage, as we get better gear our mitigation and HP increases, but our DPS only increases by a small amount. As DPS get better gear their threat goes up and there's no way a tank can maintain threat. Telling DPS to back off prolongs the problem some, but it doesn't change the fundamental issue.

    There are two ways to balance this:
    1) Put +crit on tanking plate. OR
    2) Scale threat off a tank stat like endurance.
    Same thing happens for tanks; better gear -> more damage -> more threat. I was pointing out the fact the mage was pulling during a kiting phase. If you think it's ok to go balls to the wall DPS while the tank is moving the boss, well..... No wonder this game has such a crap meta for warriors. Simple fight mechanics are being ignored.

    Threat isn't in such a bad spot that raids are not being done. Just because your DPS can't listen/stop spamming Fan Out (see what I did there?) doesn't mean threat is broken. It just means your DPSers are.
    Llamalove - 70 Cleric
    Fusepopper - 65 Mage
    Sionon - R40(P7) Warrior
    Quote Originally Posted by PFalcon View Post
    It's an axe. It's a warrior. This isn't that hard to get right. Axe---->Face---->Ouch. Do it.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellshiver View Post
    Same thing happens for tanks; better gear -> more damage -> more threat. .
    The scaling is completely different though. DPS damage scales non-linearly, they get a better weapon and a higher crit rate. My crit rate in tank gear is about 5%, essentially where it was when I stepped into my first T1 dungeon. In DPS gear, I have a 30% crit rate, and that's low because I don't have good dps gear.

    My threat has essentially increased by weapon dmg, while dps has gone up by weapon dmg*crit rate.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Caelem -- Warrior Tank/DPS
    Carinae -- Mage Alt
    Greybriar -- <Last Attempt> 9/9 T1, 2/4 GA, 1/4 IG, 1/5 PBB

  10. #25
    Telaran Hellshiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carinae View Post
    The scaling is completely different though. DPS damage scales non-linearly, they get a better weapon and a higher crit rate. My crit rate in tank gear is about 5%, essentially where it was when I stepped into my first T1 dungeon. In DPS gear, I have a 30% crit rate, and that's low because I don't have good dps gear.

    My threat has essentially increased by weapon dmg, while dps has gone up by weapon dmg*crit rate.
    Doesn't matter what damage you deal with your weapon. Well, it DOES, but what is more important is using your skills that build threat. There's a modifier for threat there for a reason.

    Tanks have two jobs:
    1.) Controlling the boss by positioning it and staying alive long enough to do so.
    2.) Set the maximum DPS rate by directly controlling threat output.

    The first job is accomplished with health pools, mitigation stats, moving in relation to the boss's hit-box and control abilities. The second is controlled by ability use, DPS stats and weapon damage. The trick in gearing is to have enough EHP (or time to live if you prefer) while maintaining a high TPS rate. You don't have to equal their damage, just out threat them with high-threat moves. You should know this as a tank.

    As I've said, raids are still happening. If there was a major problem with threat, they wouldn't be going on. Tanks don't get big numbers doing their job, kind of like how Healers are not thanked.
    Llamalove - 70 Cleric
    Fusepopper - 65 Mage
    Sionon - R40(P7) Warrior
    Quote Originally Posted by PFalcon View Post
    It's an axe. It's a warrior. This isn't that hard to get right. Axe---->Face---->Ouch. Do it.

  11. #26
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    Sure, tanking had its issues, but they're nothing compared to pvp issues.

    There's no excuse for their prioritization.

    If they were going to do a tanking overhaul, they should have just changed 2 of the tanking souls into something else. 4 tanking souls is a joke when you're barely the best tank class.

    more health in pvp is frankly not what I want. it's dps that's a problem!
    Raelyn <The Granite Guard> R40 Warrior @ Seastone
    Tomoka <The Granite Guard> R40 Cleric @ Seastone

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