209Likes
-sigh- I hate reaver tanking.
-sigh- I hate reaver tanking.
No, our armor boost is 100% increase now with the lost of Improved Guarded Steel trait which was switched for 20% higher chance to deflect. The highest I could get to on deflect was 49% in PTS, if you count raid buffs, with a total of ~45-47% damage mitigated.Originally Posted by Sebb
Last edited by Khuj; 11-10-2011 at 01:55 PM.
Part of Trinity. "Come for Trunks, stay for Trunks."
Eaux, I've been following your comments for a while, and I agree on almost EVERYTHING you've said regarding warrior tanking. Your spreadsheets have been incredibly useful, so much so that I've made a similar version for cleric tank souls.
I do have to point out a few problems with your math on cleric tanks though - our block chance will almost always be 20% higher than it is on your spreadsheet, if Precept of Refuge is kept up. In addition, under the Damage Reduced columns, you have Shield of Faith reducing all damage by 15% - on the PTS and in the patch notes, it's been lowered to 10%. Other than that, great work so far!
I also have a quick question - for mitigation, you have tenacity not stacking with the 3% damage reduction from Shaman's Thick Skinned talent. I'm not sure on this one: do these not stack, or is it just a small error in the calculation?
More on topic, I'm not entirely pleased with the direction warrior tanking is going. Warrior mitigation is still leagues ahead of other classes, and the souls still do not play to the versatility that should come with 4 tank souls. I think Eaux had the right idea - even out mitigation, then have talents determine your cooldowns and utility, not your mitigation. That way, everyone won't just be forced into a 38 reaver spec just to ensure proper mitigation.
Last edited by Cordae; 11-10-2011 at 03:38 PM.
Eaux, looking at your balance comparison spread, our 38rv hybrids are just marginally BEHIND of rs in flat mitigation for phy damage (on the order of .4-1%) but we have marginally higher avoidance (so our average mitigations about 2.5% better). So looking at that, all our other specs should be brought up quite a bit, or RS and 38rv need some nerfing. Cant make a magic damage comment as you didnt crunch the numbers for rs or just yet, but from what im seeing VK, Pally, WL and Just need a major buff, especally on their mid to high teir talents to make them even (this assumes we stick to the current system instead of doing a talent rework like they should).
Last edited by jerwel; 11-10-2011 at 03:50 PM.
Default 1.6 Tanking thread - All you need to know
COMPREHENSIVE TANKING ANALYSIS
Purpose: Break down the different builds possible. If you don't want to read anymore - go spec VK/RV/WL hybrid and laugh at everything in the game.
The testing:
Attacking elite mobs in Shimmer Sand: Wanton Destroyer and Wanton Scortcher. To start, I attacked mobs naked using a 0/0/0 with no buffs up to establish baseline damage done by mobs. All passive buffs were used, but no active buffs were used (empowered strike namely).
• Gear level is full T1 raid gear
• For reaver testing, 3 stacks of wasting were active and 10 stacks of crest mastery.
• No debuffs were used (pacifying strike etc) Warlord Testing was done using Call to Entrench, but without the 5% buff it provides (by clicking off the buff).
• Some warlord magic mitigation is slightly skewed because of the +resistance buff, which will have diminished returns with appropriate raid buffs and a full source core.
• A full earth based block source core was used.
• All magic damage taken was fire damage.
• Void Knight testing is with 10 pacts up.
Live baseline: 51 VK/8PL/7 WL : Physical Mitigation: 76%, Magical Mitigation: 30%, Block chance: 72%
Build #1: 51 VK/15 PL – Pure Void Knight:
Physical Mitigation: 74.4%; Magic Mitigation: 38.2%; Block 67%
Comments: Comes with lots of tools, easy to keep pacts up. All the usual goodies of 51 vk, but now with 7 wasted points. See later testing of 44 pts builds.
Build #2: 51 WL/15PL – Pure Warlord:
Physical Mitigation: 71%; Magic Mitigation: 39.2%; Block 68%
Comments: A very fun build. Generals order is good for some laughs, so is killing field, but not in a good way. In general, a completely fail build – stop at 32 and point the remaining 19 points in VK if you want the 3 commands.
Build #3: 51 PL/15 WL – Pure Paladin
Physical Mitigation: 70%; Magic Mitigation: 34%; Block 73%
Comments: The most fail of all 51 point builds. This lacks the mitigation of every other build you can possibly think of. Life’s rapture sharing a cooldown with Touch of Life just adds insult to injury. I’d only ever spec this if LR was changed to a 1 min CD.
Build #4: 24 VK/26 PL/16 WL – The Shield Hybrid
Physical Mitigation: 76%; Magic Mitigation: 42%; Block 73%
Comments: As mentioned above, Paladin beyond 26 is a joke. This brings you Entrench caller and all the VK goodies. A minimal VK build will make pacts a little bit difficult to keep up, so count on alternating between CtE and Pact Conversion.
Build #5: 26 VK/24 RV/16 WL – The Passive Hybrid
Physical Mitigation: 82%; Magic Mitigation: 44%; Block 51% - no POTM
POTM Estimate: 87% Physical, 52% magical
Comments: An alternate to the Shielding Hybrid, this build trades the block based benefits for static mitigation. This is the build that everyone will run unless there’s a reason you need to use the tanking cool down (since you can only get one) . Again alternating CtE and Pact Conversion, this build won’t have problems with threat. Power may be a small issue, but I doubt it in a raid setting.
Build #6: 21 RB/16WL/29VK – Blink Tank
Physical Mitigation: 77%; Magic Mitigation: 43%; Block 51%
Comments: An alternate to my old favorite. You may be able to move 3 points out of VK and then go RV instead of WL, or put points into resistance in WL and still keep Rift summon and 5 pt devour. It’s pretty asinine that this build does better than any 51 build. The changes to surge make aoe threat a lot easier, and the hp boost we get with gifts makes this more viable in a raid.
Build #7: 26 RB/16 WL/24VK – The Warstalker (aka – ROFLIMAROGUETANK)
Physical Mitigation: 75% Magic Mitigation: 51% Block
Comments: The new change to rift summon makes this build amazing. This is an awesome aoe off tank build. You simultaneously will get a pull taunt and blink every 4-6 seconds, near unlimited energy, aoe threat from surge/PC, all while providing free armor for your warrior DPS. Oh ya, feel free to taught and eat a nuke using stoneshield. The only downside is you can only put 3 points in devour because of the need to pick up Rift summon.
Build #8: 44 VK/22 WL/0 PL – The VoidLord
Physical Mitigation: 76%; Magic Mitigation: 45%; Block 62%
Comments: A really nice all around that I’ll probably have come live. You get all the best cooldowns, quality mitigation, and still a decently high block level thanks to 0 PL. Plus, with 22 points in WL you can move points around as you wish between figure head and resistances.
Build #9: 44 PLK/22 WL/0 PL –PallyLord
Physical Mitigation: 74%; Magic Mitigation: 41%; Block 73%
Comments: A decently robust build. Impassable guard is a really nice cooldown, and with this build you get a high block level. Preservation is a nice ability. This build will probably be ideal in a two tank fight without very heavy magical mitigation where FoF and the rest of the VK tools are nice to have. That is, if you don’t need the face roll mitigation of the passive hybrid.
Build #10: 44 RV/22 WL/0 PL – The ReaverLord
Physical Mitigation: 78%; Magic Mitigation: 34%; Block 58% - no POTM.
POTM Mitigation estimate: 83% physical and 43% magical.
Comments: If you really want to go deep reaver, this is the spec for you. It gives you the deep reaver cooldown plus enraged essence and binding of death. Spam blood fever without ever running out of power. Oh, also infestation at 3 points is nice.
Build #11: 44 VK/22 RV/0 PL – The Death Knight
Physical Mitigation: 78%; Magic Mitigation: 38%; Block 58% - no POTM.
POTM mitigation estimate – 83% physical and 48% magical.
Comments: This build gives you the best of the cool downs with all the reaver mitigation goodness. RS keeps your block levels up along with 0 PL. Without having to keep CtE up, you’re going to spam PC all day long. As with all reaver build, Mitigation is obscenely high.
Build #12: 44 PL/22 RV/0 PL – The VoidLord
Physical Mitigation: 75%; Magic Mitigation: 34%; Block 68% - no POTM
POTM mitigation estimate – 82% Physical and 44% magical.
Comments: One of the two ways to make 44 PL work. The mitigation is better than the 22 WL estimate with POTM active, but you don’t get the raid benefits of cutting distraction and intercept.
Build #13: 51 RV/15 PL/0 VK – The Pure Reaver
Physical Mitigation: 79%; Magic Mitigation: 44%; Block 63% (w/ POTM - no flesh rot active)
Comments: By far the best of the 51 pt souls, you gain better block than some of the reaver 2 soul hybrids. However, I don’t see a reason to go beyond 44 points. Flesh rot just isn’t worth it. This test was done using 10 stacks of POTM by using a BM pet. I went back and estimated the mitigation numbers for the 3% extra from Void.
CONCLUSION
3 soul hybrid > 2 soul hybrid > 1 51 pt soul.
If you spec’d 51 points into a tanking soul you’re doing it wrong. If the fight calls for it, go 2 souls at 44 pts and get the 1 min cooldown. Otherwise, expect see everyone running around with vk/wl/rv hybrid builds. It’s obscene. Get a boat, because there will be a flood of cleric/rogue tanking tears. Warrior tanks not including 21-25 points of reaver should ask themselves what they’re really doing. The mitigation levels are so high I had to go back and test again because I didn’t believe what I had written down.
Recommendations:
1. Remove any mitigation points in the trees and replace it with pure mitigation buffs from the gifts to keep all souls the same.
2. Baring number one (because we were already told that’s not happening), you need to fix reaver and 51 pt souls:
i. Change POTM to anything other than mitigation. A 10% increase to endurance fits with the theme, or really anything. Compensate by changing wasting back to pure mitigation not just physical. This fixes the magical side.
ii. Accord of Emptiness – 10% magic mitigation added on. Physical mitigation is ok, but this soul (that’s the anti-caster soul) – is bad against magic compared to other builds. I also recommend changing replenish. It’s a joke. I heal 44 hp. Yes you read that write – 44 hp. Make it an extra tier of ravenous that gives resistances per pact.
iii. 51 pally – new buff that reduces incoming damage by 5%, increases block 5%, and increases hp by 10%. The paladin soul in general is in a horrible state. It gets wrecked compared to all other builds. Block caps makes a lot of the builds around it not spectacular. I understand that you’re trying to compensate blocking for passive mitigation, but the hp pool needs to be slightly larger.
iv. 51 Warlord. This is another tree where you wonder why anyone would go beyond 32. Everything above 32 is situational at best, useless at worst. Killing field? 100 damage hits.
Closing Remarks:
If you pretend that Reaver mitigation gets fixed, we’ve got a lot of options to play with. Assuming that’s not going to happen, we’re going to go 3 soul hybrid, have minimal raid utility and no cooldowns – get smacked in the face repeatedly while spamming soul sickness and aggressive block. Try to stay awake. I highly recommend you challenge yourself though and go Blink tank. It’s easier in 1.6 thanks to threat changes.
Thought I'd post here, 'cause... You know, here's the place for it.
If my math is correct, 51 Justicar's magic mitigation will be:
Non-physical Attacks: 39%
Non-physical Attacks (Tenacity): 42.05%
Spells: 45%
Spells (Tenacity): 47.75%
I'm clueless as to RS, unfortunately. Haven't played with my rogue much at all. In terms of average physical mitigation for clerics, I'm pretty sure it should be closer to about 89% with the stats Eaux provided, assuming someone is giving the boss the 5% miss chance for the cleric tank. To me, the question becomes: Do warriors need to be nerfed, or do other tanks need to be buffed? If Eaux's math is right for RS, they come fairly close in physical mitigation, but clerics seem to be falling behind, even with the buffs we're getting.
It's sadly far more complicated then that.
If you were to fill out the same details for a GSB level person, you'd see that a RS takes 30% more damage than a 38RV/PL/WL, while being at sub 50% deflect compared to the near 70% block the warrior will have. That's nowhere close to balance. If you were to fast forward to the next tier, you'd probably find a fully Raid Tier 3 geared rogue takes 30% less damage than a 38 RV. But I think I'm throwing in the towel as far as caring goes. It'll be whatever it will be.
BTW, Eaux - you are completely ignoring source cores which make up for a huge source of warrior block. In full t1 gear unbuffed I'm at 890 block rating.
Seb - R40 OP PVP Warrior
Solo Tanking Akylios - But I hate tanking Plutonus.
New WF Idea for Rift
SAVE THE VK!!!
I took the block % Straight from the linked Cleric Tank Spreadsheet which, apparently was the unbuffed block. This have been fixed. The other things you mentioned were oversight and have been fixed. If you see anything else wrong with the Justicar calculations or the RS calculations, let me know. I don't play them, though I know their math is the same. I thought I grabbed all self-buffs and talents for both of the other classes, but if there are any other changes I need to make, let me know.
warrior tanks taking 30 percent more dmg then Rogue tanks...sweet, that makes sense..a calling with one tank soul taking 30 percent less damage then a calling with four.
Last edited by Widoe; 11-10-2011 at 05:40 PM.
I think some people, including Trion, dislike the idea of all the mitigation in the gifts (and a buff/stance). It is true that The Game Which We Do Not Speak Of did something similar in that The Game Which We Do Not Speak Of took out all the damage/mitigation/healing buff talents and dropped its tree's talent points down. The Game Which We Do Not Speak Of is going even further than that in the future, but I digress.
What I'm getting at, is that IT IS a balancing nightmare in the current form. That doesn't mean further copy The Game Which We Do Not Speak Of and drop all the souls down to 31 points (was that too obvious?), but it would make way for 20+ talents in each and every soul to be used for further individuality of each and every soul.
The current trends/pigeonholes are:
- Be a Riftblade in PvP b/c the physical specs have taken unbalanced nerfs.
- Be a 51VK b/c it has the highest passive mitigation or use the Mitigation spec which takes almost NOTHING but mitigation talents leaving only room for utility or uniqueness found in the roots.
- Be a spec built on a blueprint of duel-wielding....but use a 2-handed weapon instead.
This is the current situation for OUR class. Getting healing/damage/mitigation from the trees has worked for years for The Game Which We Do Not Speak Of and "works" for Rift as well, but it is a flawed, catch-22 system that does and will need re-balancing EVERY patch in the form of a never-ending virtual teeter-totter swaying in the virtual wind, never reaching complete harmony and balance.
I think after many of years of this, Trion too would get tired of the impossible balancing act. I have already expressed that I think it would be better for everyone to use a baseline gift system that is easy to tune.
Someone mentioned sarcastically if we thought we should implement a system like this for dps souls as well. My completely serious answer is: Yes.
As stated our current best spec is a dual-wield spec with a 2-hander. Because that makes sense. If a similar system was implemented for the dps souls, guess what? You could play Beast Master again. Or better play the 2-hand spec, Champion. I've never liked Paragon, though it is a neat concept of finishers that buff instead of hit harder. I started my warrior with the intention of being a Reaver-Champion dps machine. Turns out Reaver's beginning talents mislead me to think it was a dps soul and Champion is barely viable. Kind of turned me towards Tanking because of that. I could not choose my dps spec based on what I wanted to play. People use parsers to see what everyone's dps is. I had to keep up, so I had to switch to the dual-wield spec using a 2-hander spamming a buff finisher and another finisher that is off the GCD, while all the others are on the GCD, further crushing individual soul uniqueness when nearly all dps specs have Riftblade for Fiery Burst.
Like I said, the current system "works", but it will never be balanced and there will probably never be a way for anyone to play whatever Tank or DPS spec suits them. We will continue to be typecast and pigeonholed into whatever spec has the highest dps/mitigation/healing, unless it is base-lined, freeing up talents to promote individual soul flavor, uniqueness, utility and essence.
It's all because of armor scaling.
Last edited by Sebb; 11-10-2011 at 05:51 PM.
Seb - R40 OP PVP Warrior
Solo Tanking Akylios - But I hate tanking Plutonus.
New WF Idea for Rift
SAVE THE VK!!!
it's ****, I play a warrior to tank, and now I'm going to be beat by a class that can basicly do everything better then a warrior and has ranged and support callings on top of it, wtf. GG trion..
Hmmm Eaux I didn't know that wow did that. I played a dps rogue. But fundamentally it makes sense.
With so many no-linear variables in there, it's impossible to keep it straight for 3 different classes.
Seb - R40 OP PVP Warrior
Solo Tanking Akylios - But I hate tanking Plutonus.
New WF Idea for Rift
SAVE THE VK!!!
You realize Sebb's numbers were theoretical with a theoretical set of armor from a Tier that doesn't exist yet? Currently, and with 1.6, Warriors will not take 30% more damage than Rogues. I think Trion realizes these aren't the final changes that will need to be made to tanking, as Eaux pointed out above.
Hitme (W) - Byriel - Dark HorizonDarane (C) - Faeblight - Knights of Septoria
no no mattya... the sky is falling
But once you get to the point where you're tuning encounters around 92% mitigation... stuff goes weird.
And yes... all made up #s.
Seb - R40 OP PVP Warrior
Solo Tanking Akylios - But I hate tanking Plutonus.
New WF Idea for Rift
SAVE THE VK!!!
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