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Thread: 1.5 - Warrior Decline

  1. #31
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHangman View Post
    I'm gonna go respec so I have threat and mitigation issues just so I can join in the conversation.

    I mean, seeing as how I'm plodding along pretty much the same as I was before 1.5 I must be doing it wrong, right?
    As I've stated before, I do not have any issues with tanking at all (threat or mitigation). However, I use more than just spotter's to keep AoE aggro (no force taunts though).
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHangman View Post
    I'm gonna go respec so I have threat and mitigation issues just so I can join in the conversation.

    I mean, seeing as how I'm plodding along pretty much the same as I was before 1.5 I must be doing it wrong, right?
    How can you not see the nerfs? If a Warrior has to work harder, or another class does one thing better than them, it's a direct attack on the existence of Warriors. Respec? Are you mental? Reroll and prep for unsub. You're dead to Trion.

  3. #33
    Telaran
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    Meh, I rather enjoyed "working" on aggro for approximately 30-45 seconds then going afk for 2 minutes while the mob died... especially on those split-apart trash pulls
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  4. #34
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    Yeah it has been interesting seeing the difference in SO. What used to be rock solid now requires finesse and I still have a lot to learn.

  5. #35
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    Pretty sure Spotters+BA works the same and requires no increase of "finesse".

    Tanked a DRR this morning and made a macro:

    cast Spotter's Order
    cast Aggressive Block
    cast Reckless Strike

    I just hit that button while eating my bagels.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    How can you not see the nerfs? If a Warrior has to work harder, or another class does one thing better than them, it's a direct attack on the existence of Warriors. Respec? Are you mental? Reroll and prep for unsub. You're dead to Trion.

    Just to add:

    And respec to what?

    You HAVE to have a shield. If you are getting by without one your foes are not really very good or your healers are amazing.

    That leaves 1 dps spec with minor variations and a couple tank specs (and no one really wants to tank in pvp).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwraithes View Post
    As I've stated before, I do not have any issues with tanking at all (threat or mitigation). However, I use more than just spotter's to keep AoE aggro (no force taunts though).
    I've never used Warlord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    How can you not see the nerfs? If a Warrior has to work harder, or another class does one thing better than them, it's a direct attack on the existence of Warriors. Respec? Are you mental? Reroll and prep for unsub. You're dead to Trion.
    Reroll and/or unsub instead of adapting? And you're wondering if I'm mental...

    Haha!

  8. #38
    Rift Disciple Swinn's Avatar
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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,

    QQ no no no QQ more, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, QQ, QQ, QQ!!!!! I want to faceroll when i DPS and tank to. QQ, QQ, QQ I tanked DH yesterday with Kruuuuunnch's mitigation 3.0 build and i didn't have ANY issue with aggro or damage mitigation. Hell I was drinking freaking coffee and talking to my wife while the pty was clearing the trash and i was stationary. I also tried 51VK to see what all the tears were about... no issue there either both in instances and DH. I still don't understand it when peeps complain about not generating enough threat... and taunts not generating damage. You taunt, the mobs comes running you hit air blast/concussion etc. (as in aoe taunt) and they are stuck to you.

    If the DPS (with all due respect) aren't noobs and have waited 2 - 3 secs before breaking the dps meter then you will have NO issues, PERIOD. To all the people who are talking all the BS about unsub... LOL your choice but if you can't addapt to changes then quit playing MMO's today!
    Malumvomica <The Fabled> Rogue DPS
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  9. #39
    Telaran Rosette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    I like tanking. My ONLY gripe is that Sergeants order is on the same CD as my taunts. Yes, I'm aware its also a taunt. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking.

    Other than that, I had no real issues clearing RoS/GSB or tanking Murdantix. Increased threat from a few people but just meant I had to work a lil harder to build threat.

    I said it in another thread and I'll say it here again, spec deeper into WL, get Call to Battle and Call to Entrench.

    cast Call to Entrench
    cast Call to Battle
    cast Spotter's Order

    Profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwraithes View Post
    16 points in WL is all you need to get CtB and CtE, regardless of what build you go with (unless you are running 51VK) you can spare 16 points, while keeping 18pts in VK. If you can't get a solid build from Reaver or Pally with 32 points left over you may be doing it wrong.
    In the first place the two of you probably aren't warrior tanks, so you don't understand. The only viable calls for warriors to use is Spotter's & your 3 commands (Assault, Aid, Rallying)
    Call To Entrench will overwrite your bard's Motif of Tenacity, and remove resonance (5% extra stats to everyone in the raid).
    Call to Battle will hardly activate because it's weak compared to your archon/bard buffs. I.e. it's a waste of attack points.

    Another issue is that warlord is hardly a viable spec all the time. It has 0 magic mitigation, which means that you will exclude it from a magic mitigation spec... see where you're going there?

    I am a HK main tank, and at the moment, spamming 1 point spotter's orders isn't enough to hold aoe threat against a rogue tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puandro View Post
    Warriors are still the best tanks. Still the best ST dps.
    At the moment, 51marksman is ranged dps, and outparsing anything but the full HK geared warrior.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHangman View Post
    I've never used Warlord.


    Reroll and/or unsub instead of adapting? And you're wondering if I'm mental...

    Haha!
    You don't raid, do you? Do you have any idea what warlord brings to the table in terms of warrior tanking?
    Rosette
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosette View Post
    In the first place the two of you probably aren't warrior tanks, so you don't understand. The only viable calls for warriors to use is Spotter's & your 3 commands (Assault, Aid, Rallying)
    Call To Entrench will overwrite your bard's Motif of Tenacity, and remove resonance (5% extra stats to everyone in the raid).
    Call to Battle will hardly activate because it's weak compared to your archon/bard buffs. I.e. it's a waste of attack points.

    Another issue is that warlord is hardly a viable spec all the time. It has 0 magic mitigation, which means that you will exclude it from a magic mitigation spec... see where you're going there?

    I am a HK main tank, and at the moment, spamming 1 point spotter's orders isn't enough to hold aoe threat against a rogue tank.



    At the moment, 51marksman is ranged dps, and outparsing anything but the full HK geared warrior.



    You don't raid, do you? Do you have any idea what warlord brings to the table in terms of warrior tanking?
    How are you an HK tank and don't know a damn thing about Warlord tanking?
    Lets start with something easy...

    Call to Entrench: The Warrior's battle cry reduces the damage raid members take by 5%, in addition to reducing the damage that the Warlord takes by 3%:
    1 Point: 6 seconds.
    2 Points: 12 seconds.
    3 Points: 18 seconds.

    Now, Correct me if I'm wrong but 8% dmg reduction is 8% less damage taken... all damage? YUP!

    So let's apply this buff and see what happens...

    Ok I now have 8% less incoming dmg. Resonance is still up. OH **** the bard renewed his Motifs and I lost Call to Entrench!!! Oh wait... I get the bards 5% dmg reduction and still have my personal 3% dmg reduction... WHEW that was close.

    Call to Battle: The Warrior's battle cry increases the Attack Power and Spell Power of all raid members by 62, in addition to increasing their own Attack Power by an additional 42:
    1 Point: 6 seconds.
    2 Points: 12 seconds.
    3 Points: 18 seconds.

    Wait... you said it was weak when compared to bard/archon buffs...

    Motif of Bravery: Plays a Motif that increases the Attack Power and Spell Power of party and raid members by 62. Lasts 15 seconds.

    Hrm... wait, that says 62, mine says 62+42. I'm confused.

    Now, I use 16 warlord in my Magic mitigation spec, along with Reaver and VK. What do I give up? Paladin. 9% magic dmg reduction... everything else is physical mitigation. What do I gain? Utility, threat, threat, and threat. So all in all I lose 6% dmg reduction but gain absurd amounts of threat.

    16WL/29VK/21RV

    Now, for physical fights I use a 32 warlord spec. I've tank HK with it, it does just fine. My physical mitigation is absurdly high and raid buffed I have ~83% block and 62% dmg reduction on block 20% dodge 17% parry 17k armor. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. It works for me.

    Just because you don't know your calling inside and out, that doesn't mean others don't as well.
    Last edited by Bloodbourne; 10-01-2011 at 10:50 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Call to Entrench and Call to Battle don't give you any more threat than Spotters. All call abilities increase threat by a factor of your endurance and are not in anyway affected by chaining different calls. The only increased threat that a 16 point WL build will have is Intercept and Imposing and you shouldn't really need those to hold aggro unless your dps are jumping the gun.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorano View Post
    Call to Entrench and Call to Battle don't give you any more threat than Spotters. All call abilities increase threat by a factor of your endurance and are not in anyway affected by chaining different calls. The only increased threat that a 16 point WL build will have is Intercept and Imposing and you shouldn't really need those to hold aggro unless your dps are jumping the gun.
    True, BUT, the generic Magic mitigation build doesn't HAVE warlord at all (VK/RV/PL). It is the max magic mitigation but has lowered threat. Intercept is one of the best threat builders you can have aside from calls. If you're having threat issues put in at the bottom of your macros (cast @mark 5 Intercept) and mark a high burst Raid Member as 5.

    While I understand and completely agree that warriors are the KINGS of threat. I also understand that DPS scales better than our threat generation. If you get a fresh tank in his shiny dungeon T2/Raid rift tank gear with a p8 warrior DPS, you think he's going to be able to hold threat every time? Sure, he will stand a good chance but if that warrior gets a good crit chain flowing, there is still a good chance he will pull aggro (especially since melee have the burden of a lower threat pull mechanic than range).

    Just my thoughts on that. Personally, I've lost aggro here and there since 1.5, but it was just people (including myself) getting used to the DPS increases. One of my mages went from spiking at 1.5-1.7k at the beginning of a fight to over 2k spikes. Even he was taken aback by his dmg output. I tossed a intercept on him at the start of the fight and it was never an issue after that.
    Misterwar <-Virus-> 5/11 Warborne <Yakisoba> 5/11 Warborne <Apotheosys> 0/11

  13. #43
    Telaran Rosette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    How are you an HK tank and don't know a damn thing about Warlord tanking?
    Lets start with something easy...

    Call to Entrench: The Warrior's battle cry reduces the damage raid members take by 5%, in addition to reducing the damage that the Warlord takes by 3%:
    1 Point: 6 seconds.
    2 Points: 12 seconds.
    3 Points: 18 seconds.

    Now, Correct me if I'm wrong but 8% dmg reduction is 8% less damage taken... all damage? YUP!

    So let's apply this buff and see what happens...

    Ok I now have 8% less incoming dmg. Resonance is still up. OH **** the bard renewed his Motifs and I lost Call to Entrench!!! Oh wait... I get the bards 5% dmg reduction and still have my personal 3% dmg reduction... WHEW that was close.

    Call to Battle: The Warrior's battle cry increases the Attack Power and Spell Power of all raid members by 62, in addition to increasing their own Attack Power by an additional 42:
    1 Point: 6 seconds.
    2 Points: 12 seconds.
    3 Points: 18 seconds.

    Wait... you said it was weak when compared to bard/archon buffs...

    Motif of Bravery: Plays a Motif that increases the Attack Power and Spell Power of party and raid members by 62. Lasts 15 seconds.

    Hrm... wait, that says 62, mine says 62+42. I'm confused.

    Now, I use 16 warlord in my Magic mitigation spec, along with Reaver and VK. What do I give up? Paladin. 9% magic dmg reduction... everything else is physical mitigation. What do I gain? Utility, threat, threat, and threat. So all in all I lose 6% dmg reduction but gain absurd amounts of threat.

    16WL/29VK/21RV

    Now, for physical fights I use a 32 warlord spec. I've tank HK with it, it does just fine. My physical mitigation is absurdly high and raid buffed I have ~83% block and 62% dmg reduction on block 20% dodge 17% parry 17k armor. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. It works for me.

    Just because you don't know your calling inside and out, that doesn't mean others don't as well.
    42 self attack power, and 3% self physical mitigation, at the cost of not having 3x Spotter's Orders on 3 different targets, as well as the possibility of screwing your bard over when you overwrite his motifs time and again.
    FYI: resonance is lost the moment you overwrite any of the motifs. If you're timing your call to entrench and call to battle based on when your bard's buffs run out, bravo. I salute you to be a better tank than 99% of the people in this game. Whatever bonus that you gain, however, is limited to only yourself, as you clearly pointed out in your own post. I fail to see how that is 'utility' when no one else benefits from it, and instead are more likely to suffer from you untimely removing resonance.

    As a main tank, since you prefer threat over magic mitigation on a magic-damage encounter, that's your personal choice. I know that I will do what I can to make my healers' lives easier. Since your heals can carry you through your usage of a less than efficient spec, well done, kudos to your guild's healers.

    By the way, Intercept is a crutch. Just throw a taunt to put yourself back on top of the table in the generic magic resistance spec.
    Last edited by Rosette; 10-01-2011 at 11:19 PM.
    Rosette
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    Guardians, Dayblind

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosette View Post
    42 self attack power, and 3% self physical mitigation, at the cost of not having 3x Spotter's Orders on 3 different targets, as well as the possibility of screwing your bard over when you overwrite his motifs time and again.
    FYI: resonance is lost the moment you overwrite any of the motifs. If you're timing your call to entrench and call to battle based on when your bard's buffs run out, bravo. I salute you to be a better tank than 99% of the people in this game. Whatever bonus that you gain, however, is limited to only yourself, as you clearly pointed out in your own post. I fail to see how that is 'utility' when no one else benefits from it, and instead are more likely to suffer from you untimely removing resonance.

    As a main tank, since you prefer threat over magic mitigation on a magic-damage encounter, that's your personal choice. I know that I will do what I can to make my healers' lives easier. Since your heals can carry you through your usage of a less than efficient spec, well done, kudos to your guild's healers.

    By the way, Intercept is a crutch. Just throw a taunt to put yourself back on top of the table in the generic magic resistance spec.
    Calls do NOT remove resonance, resonance is a buff that is placed on you when the motifs are all put up. Test it yourself, have the bard put up Motifs, then remove all of them by right clicking the icons. you'll still have Resonance.

    Intercept is not a crutch. Its a game mechanic. Just like incriminate.

    My healers love me for my mitigation. My DPS love me for my threat. I'm not being carried.

    If you're using a taunt on a boss fight for anything but adds... you're doing it wrong.

    I maintain Spotters on as many targets as there are up. It lasts 20 seconds... thats abundant amounts of time to keep Entrench rolling and several 3pt spotters rolling on targets. Though to be fair, if I'm tanking multiple mobs I'm probably in my 32 warlord spec which means I'm gaining attack points on block as well which helps. With my Magic mitigation spec I can still keep 2-3 spotters running at one time, though.

    FYI Call to Entrench is ALL dmg... not just Physical. Learn your calling.
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  15. #45
    Telaran Rosette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    Calls do NOT remove resonance, resonance is a buff that is placed on you when the motifs are all put up. Test it yourself, have the bard put up Motifs, then remove all of them by right clicking the icons. you'll still have Resonance.

    Intercept is not a crutch. Its a game mechanic. Just like incriminate.

    My healers love me for my mitigation. My DPS love me for my threat. I'm not being carried.

    If you're using a taunt on a boss fight for anything but adds... you're doing it wrong.

    I maintain Spotters on as many targets as there are up. It lasts 20 seconds... thats abundant amounts of time to keep Entrench rolling and several 3pt spotters rolling on targets. Though to be fair, if I'm tanking multiple mobs I'm probably in my 32 warlord spec which means I'm gaining attack points on block as well which helps. With my Magic mitigation spec I can still keep 2-3 spotters running at one time, though.

    FYI Call to Entrench is ALL dmg... not just Physical. Learn your calling.
    3% damage vs 9% magical damage on a magic fight? do you know math?

    If you are going to say that Intercept is a game mechanic, so is the mechanic of taunting equalizing your threat with the highest, is it not?
    FYI: Incriminate threat does not last. It's only good for the opening or for reducing rogue threat, after the 5 seconds are up the threat that was transferred dissipates.

    WRT resonance, I will have to check on that. My information is from 1.3, and I have never tested post-1.3 because I never saw a need to put up the buffs.
    WRT spotter's - 3 targets is the mathematical max that you can indefinitely keep spotter's up on, assuming 6 seconds / 3point spotter's (4gcds) and 20 sec duration, which means you can't squeeze a Call into it.
    Waaaaaait a minute, you run 32 warlord for utility.... and martial shield. Interesting. I have to try that.
    Last edited by Rosette; 10-01-2011 at 11:59 PM.
    Rosette
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