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Thread: [REVAMP] Deioth's Paragon Overhaul

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    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Default [REVAMP] Deioth's Paragon Overhaul

    It's clear the Warrior calling has problems. No calling is without them, naturally, and there are only a dismal few truly worthwhile pure souls (51 pointers). Of all the callings, however, the warrior is easily the most crippled. The first and most significant problem is Strike Like Iron of the Paragon tree. From here, we've got a severely underperforming soul that ironically is the only "worthwhile" 51 pointer for warriors (Riftblade); a “support” tank soul with next to nothing worth while about it (Warlord); a soul worthless if not for SLI (Paragon); a pet soul good only for the DPS from its pet (Beastmaster); and tank souls in general not worth a single point past mid-tier. After all this, our only good DPS/Burst soul has limited utility, no survivability, and the 1.1 patch made its damage abilities completely inconsistent with each other (Champion)

    All numbers used in suggestions are “sounds good to me” numbers and not to be taken literally. The suggestions should be accepted on their own merits. As well, I understand that every change in the current state of the game would risk making Paragon a FotM, so they are being made in the assumption other currently lacking souls will be appropriately tweaked.

    Without further ado, here are my suggestions for changes to Paragon. My goals were to emphasize dual-wielding more prominently while ensuring Paragon remains a viable hybrid soul, changing his survival talents to be more valuable in group content, and of course do something about Strike Like Iron. It should be said first and foremost that SLI needs to be gotten rid of completely and all warrior souls given a 25-35% blanket damage buff based on if it's a defensive VS offensive soul and depending on ability to make up for the fact that SLI is the only thing making us competitive in PvE and providing us killing power in PvP. I also must admit to having no real experience with Paragon so any particular removals and changes I've made that you feel are affecting something core to Paragon, point it out! This is all an exercise in design for me in hopes it gets some gears oiled and moving over at Trion to fix us already.

    Branches

    Tier 0

    Combat Precision: Passive
    Current Iteration: Non-finishers ignore 1/2/3/4/5% armor
    Suggested Change: Physical attacks with one-handed weapons ignore 1/2/3/4/5% of armor per melee weapon equipped.
    Reasoning: It's fairly weak as is, but could be beneficial against high-armor targets for physical DPS builds. To help promote dual-wielding, having an off-hand weapon will make this 2/4/6/8/10% armor ignored. Making it all physical attacks makes it more beneficial for hybrids and off-specs while making paragon main souls and DW specs in general far more attractive right off the bat having it contributed to by the off-hand.

    Tier 1
    Predictable Movements: Finisher, 2 minute cooldown
    Current Iteration: The next 1/2/3 melee attacks for up to 12 seconds are reflected back against the attacker.
    Suggested Change: Stacks 2/3/4 times on use, each stack reflecting melee attacks back against the attacker. Cooldown reduced to 1 minute.
    Reasoning: For this to be a timed buff finisher (especially if looked at in the current iteration of things) first of all severely limits its value. Second, being melee only, becomes nothing more than a helpful leveling skill and somewhat beneficial PvP ability. Third, the cooldown is huge for such a limited finisher, especially if this could be considered an “Oh, S^$!” ability. If it wasn't a finisher, the cooldown would be understandable, but I think it should remain a finisher and with a 1 minute cooldown. By making this a flat stack instead of a timed stack, suddenly Paragon becomes a viable secondary soul for tanks. Tanks could spec with Paragon for its parry and some extra crit through Way of the River while they can take advantage of beginning pulls with Predictable Movements for the threat generated by the reflects.

    Double Jeopardy: Passive
    Current Iteration: Increases follow up crit chance by 2/4/6% after Path of the Wind or Double Strike.
    Suggested Change: Removed. Move Deadly Grace to Tier 1.
    Reasoning: You'll see how I've moved things around a bit later. I needed some room to benefit dual wielding better and I've done a few things to compensate for the lost added crit chance.

    Tier 3
    Flowing Strikes: Passive
    Current Iteration: Adds 1/2/3/4/5% crit chance for 6 seconds after critting
    Suggested Change: Moved to Tier 4. Adds 2/3/4/5/6% crit chance for 8 seconds after critting.
    Reasoning: I am moving a few things around and getting some extra points for new talents, like I did with Double Jeopardy. Yes, this means Improved Flowing Strikes is no more. The extra point of crit chance is to help make up for Double Jeopardy.

    Improved Predictable Movements:
    New Talent, Passive
    Effect: When Predictable Movements is active, the Paragon also deflects projectiles, both physical and magical and earn one extra reflection per ability point. Also, if the paragon is hit by a melee-range area effect ability and is not his attacker's target, 50% of the damage is reflected back.
    Reasoning: This provides some extra survivability to the paragon in both PvE and PvP, something DPS trees for warriors lack in general. Not only are paragons less squishy against big, nasty AoE, and build up extra damage, they earn a benefit in PvP with the ranged deflection (not reflection, but delection, they essentially parry it).

    Body and Blade Made One: New Talent, Passive
    Effect: Whenever a melee-range ability with a weapon damage contribution is used, 20/40/60% of the off-hand weapon's damage is added. Weapon damage ranged abilities receive 10/20/30% contribution from the off-hand weapon. Dual Strike and Paired Strike are increased to 80/90/100 for main-hand and 55/65/75 for the off-hand.
    Reasoning: WHY isn't there ANY REASON AT ALL to have two weapons? Quite honestly, it boggles the mind. Dual-wield specs of all sorts, not just Paragons, are now greatly benefited by such a crucial passive.

    Tier 4
    Run Like the Wind: Passive
    Current Iteration: Increases duration of Fleet of Foot by 2/4/6 seconds.
    Suggested Change: Removed.
    Reasoning: Again. More points for better, Paragon-esque talents. Fleet of Foot will be addressed later.

    Dervish: New Talent, Passive
    Effect: 15/30% extra dodge and parry chance against any melee-ranged area effect. After a dodge or parry, the paragon's next 1/2 follow up attacks within 3/6 seconds are guaranteed criticals.
    Reasoning: This benefits a few things; 1. This is an attempt to make up for the loss of Double Jeopardy, like my change to Flowing Strikes also serves to do; 2. Serenity can be made to pop more often; 3. The paragon has more survivability in raid content and some PvP content while also then bolstering damage, especially if Way of the Wind is used for Paragon main-builds.

    Tier 5
    Touch of Tranquility: Active, 15 second CC (Sap), 20 energy, melee range, 30 sec cooldown
    Suggested Change: Removed. Replaced with the new finisher “Flow Like Water” which causes all single-target attacks to also do off-hand weapon damage to an adjacent enemy and all AoE attacks do 20% of off-hand weapon damage, lasts 6/10/14 seconds, 1 minute cooldown.
    Reasoning: Is it... really useful? It feels to me to be in the same vein as Beastmaster's 44 point sleep skill. It's out of place. By changing it to a dual-wield AoE buff, we see more use and benefit from the off-hand, fleshing out the Paragon tree as a dedicated two weapon specialist.

    Whirling Blades:
    New Talent, Passive
    Effect: Shifting Blades effects an additional 1/2 ability attacks.
    Reasoning: One thing I'm doing is removing SLI entirely and moving Shifting Blades down to the level 2 root spot to replace it. The Paragon was seemingly designed with finisher buffs in mind rather than finisher attacks as their primary finishers, so this will greatly benefit those who focus on such a playstyle as well as deep Paragon trees because Shifting Blades will be their bread and butter finisher.

    Tier 6
    Death Touch: Reduces target STR and DEX by 10% per sec over 8 secs and then does X damage. Follow up attack. 20 energy, 60 sec cooldown.
    Suggested Change: Reduces AP, SP, Phys crit, and Spell crit by X% for 10 seconds and does Y damage. Follow up attack.
    Alternative Change: Renamed to “Dance of Fire” (someone tell me the reference and win a cookie) and the next four non-finishers also do 50% weapon damage from each equipped weapon as a bleed.
    Reasoning: Maybe in practice its more valuable than I think, but it strikes me as odd to be only a STR/DEX reducer, over time, followed then by the damage. It should be frontload. I happen to think an attack like this is far better placed in the Reaver tree, anyways, thus my alternative suggestion as another finisher buff. While two-hander/sword-and-board builds would find value in this, we see again a skill aimed towards dual-wielding. A dual-wield Beastmaster hybrid, for example, would greatly appreciate a skill like this (Why are BMs the only warrior soul with bleeds, anyways? Really restricts their hybrid options).
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

    Please Click, Read, And Respond! Thank you!

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Roots

    Tier 0
    Dual Strike: Ability Point builder, requires two weapons, level 0
    Change: Strikes with both weapons, adding 75% main hand and 45% off-hand weapon damage + small X. Body and Blade Made One further buff this. Decently geared and talented for it, this should become one of the strongest AP builders in the game, but it should require the investment. It should also be the most often used AP builder next to follow-ups for a paragon or dual-wield build.

    Strike Like Iron: Finisher, buffs damage by 12/24/48%, 12 second cooldown, off GCD
    Change: Removed. Shifting Blades takes its place. All other warrior souls are adjusted accordingly to make up for the loss in this buff, about 30% give or take five or ten on every single attack. Maybe give our AP scaling some proper tweaking or add some phys crit to strength so we can stick to plate and not have leather BiS.

    Tier 1

    Way of the River: Adds 3% crit chance, level 6
    Change: Adds 3% crit chance and 6% crit chance for follow-ups when using two weapons. This compensates for losing Double Jeopardy until Dervish and Flowing Strikes can be talented when you get Way of the Mountain while making hybrids and paragon secondaries more approachable for reasons other than SLI.

    Tier 2

    Fleet of Foot: Adds 50% run speed for 15 seconds, 60 sec cooldown, 10 energy, level 16
    Change: Removes all movement impairing effects, adds 50% run speed, 45 second cooldown. This is a compensation for the loss of Run Like the Wind, but also because Paragon lacks a CC break and lacks any real CC themselves.

    The Endless Whirlwind: New ability, 10 energy, 2 minute cooldown, level 18
    Change: This replaces Shifting Blades since that moved down to level 2 to cover SLI. Endless Whirlwind immediately coolsdown Shifting Blades. I think the branches have enough finisher buffs now that the roots won't need another here.

    Tier 3
    Paired Strike: AP Builder, Follow ups for 5 seconds crit, 15 sec cooldown, 20 energy, level 44.
    Change: Simply alter the damage around a bit so that it can contribute from off-hand weapon damage. I'd do the same thing as with Dual Strike, doing 75%main/45%off.

    Flurry: Finisher, channeled, 60 sec cooldown, 15 energy, level 51
    Change: Costs 25 energy, lasts 16 seconds, 90 second cooldown. Reduces global cooldown by .5 seconds for the duration. Much better than some measly damage ability, no? And much more fitting of a level 51 ability for that matter.

    Thus ends my ideas for the Paragon. Again, these should be taken on merit of what the suggestion is rather than the numbers I provided, and furthermore, these changes should be read in the context that all other souls are currently viable to 51 points.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

    Please Click, Read, And Respond! Thank you!

  3. #3
    Ascendant
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    Some nice ideas there. Definitely like a lot of the ways you've thought of making dual wielding actually matter too. You've also kept with the theme of the Paragon with the emphasis on Finishers being powerful self buffs to benefit strong AP builders rather than being about hard hitting damage Finishers.

    Oh, and your Flurry is infinitely more Paragon-esque than the... thing they have at 51 points currently. A cooldown which tempoarily reduces the GCD time is very fitting for what is supposed to feel like the 'finesse' Warrior DPS soul.
    Last edited by Kedon; 06-05-2011 at 02:51 PM.

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    Plane Touched
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    Why do you think the Paragon needs fixing?

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    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    Why do you think the Paragon needs fixing?
    Is that seriously your response?

    1. Strike Like Iron is required by every warrior DPS and every PvP build. I'd dare say Cleric DPS and burst would be better than ours without it.
    2. No one dual wields Paragon. They use a two-hander and mix it with Champion because none of the skills requiring two weapons are worth it and everything that is open to all weapon mixes is superior with a two-hander.
    3. There aren't many 51 point abilities, let alone 51 point souls, that are worth the investment.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

    Please Click, Read, And Respond! Thank you!

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    Rift Disciple Neuronicercasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    Why do you think the Paragon needs fixing?
    mmm lemme think....

    ...ah, found, maybe because being Paragon THE dual wielder warrior soul even while speccing 51pts into it still shows no point to dual wield for any dps/tank/pvp/support purpose.

    Now, sorry i answer your question and put another question, what game are you actually playing? The OP made a very detailed and interesting post, please refrain to troll here degrading the thread.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    I run a 13 RB/23 champ/30 Para build. I do quite well dps wise, 900-1.2k in raids (depending on how much i get to stand still and fight). I have all T2 gear with Dukes 1h wep and a gun from the first boss in GP.

    I do agree that Paragon needs some fixing, but just a little bit of tweaking, not changing 50% of their skills.
    Yes, something needs to be done about SLI, but what you have suggested does not seem to fit imo. I do not know what to do about it, but something will come up soon for it i hope.

    I strongly agree on your change to Flurry.

    Oh, does "Dance of Fire" come from Avatar: The Last Airbender by any chance?

    Also, i believe a lot of people say Paragon's are awful because they never really give them a chance. Paragons cannot be macroed like other warrior builds, and thus requires a skillful rotation that cannot be learned within the 10 mins of beating up a dummy.
    Last edited by Nezpakish; 06-06-2011 at 07:34 AM.

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    Plane Touched
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    Wow you guys are hostile, did I offend you in some way? And you have the cheek to insinuate that I am trolling.

    Unlike u2 I actually have gone to the trouble of playing a Paragon and what your ASSUMPTIONS have totally neglected are threefold:

    1. Paras are heavy front load damage and very effective at it.
    2. Paras are group chars, ie great on the field as dps role with support, not to be played by novice players.
    3. Paras are perfect at disposing of melee and physical damage players. Get royally owned by RBs for example. Can go toe to toe with mages in general, especially if you get the jump.

    By all means make your theories and suggestions, but don't be so rude when people with real experience give you feed back. Mmmmkay?

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    Plane Touched
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    I'm talking PvP btw not PvE.

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    Ascendant Marrocco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    Wow you guys are hostile, did I offend you in some way? And you have the cheek to insinuate that I am trolling.

    Unlike u2 I actually have gone to the trouble of playing a Paragon and what your ASSUMPTIONS have totally neglected are threefold:

    1. Paras are heavy front load damage and very effective at it.
    2. Paras are group chars, ie great on the field as dps role with support, not to be played by novice players.
    3. Paras are perfect at disposing of melee and physical damage players. Get royally owned by RBs for example. Can go toe to toe with mages in general, especially if you get the jump.

    By all means make your theories and suggestions, but don't be so rude when people with real experience give you feed back. Mmmmkay?
    Paragon's don't do enough damage. It's a DPS, not a tanking tree.

    After 32 points, you have to talent out parry. Please clear this up for me, since you're in the know and I'm not:

    What's the point of a hybrid tank/DPS tree when I can (and am encouraged to) be creative with my builds and, you know, subspec tank?

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    What are you on about "hybrid Tank"? Paras are blatantly a dps class. The champion is the slow Two-hander dude that hits like a truck, the Riftblade is the magic wierd jumping abuser soul :P and the Paragon is the fast moving ninja style warrior who can Bend like the Reed!

    I wish I had the enthusiasm to fraps a video for you. But I will give you some examples anyway, of what my 44 para/22 champ/0 RB can do:

    1. Have two charges: Bull Rush and Thread the Trees. So that makes me pretty unrootable and unsnarable. One or the other is always up. It also means I am instantly in your face.

    2. I have 2 given non-GCDs and 3 reactive non-GCDs. A lot of the time I wait for 2 reactives to come up and spam them with one of the bash or Flinching Strike. Honestly kill a ranger/Marksman in under 2 seconds.

    3. Path of the Hurricane. Its does more damage than Rising Waterfall and has a huge huge cone of effect.

    4. Bend like the Reed. Really good against all forms of physical damage. Especially coupled with Way of the Wind buff.

    5. Paired Strike is really good, especially with only 15 seconds CD.

    6. Path of the Raptor, Path of wind and PotH give me really good range, so can always maintain damage even on fleeing jumping healers.

    7. 22 Champion gives me Intense Training 2(makes my champ buffs better), Lingering Wounds (healing debuff), Ruthless Pursuit (purge)

    8. All my skills are on a very low CD, I run with 4 buffs permanently on, my energy literally never runs out and I have a lot of procs which improve crit rating etc.

    I could go on for ages, but you get the point. I actually think its a very clever class.

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    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    Wow you guys are hostile, did I offend you in some way? And you have the cheek to insinuate that I am trolling.

    Unlike u2 I actually have gone to the trouble of playing a Paragon and what your ASSUMPTIONS have totally neglected are threefold:

    1. Paras are heavy front load damage and very effective at it.
    2. Paras are group chars, ie great on the field as dps role with support, not to be played by novice players.
    3. Paras are perfect at disposing of melee and physical damage players. Get royally owned by RBs for example. Can go toe to toe with mages in general, especially if you get the jump.

    By all means make your theories and suggestions, but don't be so rude when people with real experience give you feed back. Mmmmkay?
    Then next time don't drop in with a meaningless postcount++ response. I also fail to see how I neglected the Paragon as a heavy frontload soul The rest is entirely PvP related and I made sure that every skill and talent has value within both realms of the game.

    Come back with an argument or you will be considered nothing BUT a troll.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

    Please Click, Read, And Respond! Thank you!

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer Melkrow's Avatar
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    Currently running a para build with rb and champ mixed in while it is a great build that is extremely mobile with unlimited energy, ti does feel as though the dps is a little underwhelming from where it should be.

    Trion simply needs to fix the root of the problem for paragons, dual wield does not calculate damage as it should which is why it falls short of 2 handed on all points. They need to either just put it in static that both weapons calculate in attacks, or add in a 5/5 talent that does so with scaling benefit. This would easily fix the issue for paragons and make them much more attractive in both pve and pvp.
    Bye Bye Rift. Say hi to Pyros.

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    Ascendant Marrocco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    What are you on about "hybrid Tank"? Paras are blatantly a dps class. The champion is the slow Two-hander dude that hits like a truck, the Riftblade is the magic wierd jumping abuser soul :P and the Paragon is the fast moving ninja style warrior who can Bend like the Reed!

    I wish I had the enthusiasm to fraps a video for you. But I will give you some examples anyway, of what my 44 para/22 champ/0 RB can do:

    1. Have two charges: Bull Rush and Thread the Trees. So that makes me pretty unrootable and unsnarable. One or the other is always up. It also means I am instantly in your face.

    2. I have 2 given non-GCDs and 3 reactive non-GCDs. A lot of the time I wait for 2 reactives to come up and spam them with one of the bash or Flinching Strike. Honestly kill a ranger/Marksman in under 2 seconds.

    3. Path of the Hurricane. Its does more damage than Rising Waterfall and has a huge huge cone of effect.

    4. Bend like the Reed. Really good against all forms of physical damage. Especially coupled with Way of the Wind buff.

    5. Paired Strike is really good, especially with only 15 seconds CD.

    6. Path of the Raptor, Path of wind and PotH give me really good range, so can always maintain damage even on fleeing jumping healers.

    7. 22 Champion gives me Intense Training 2(makes my champ buffs better), Lingering Wounds (healing debuff), Ruthless Pursuit (purge)

    8. All my skills are on a very low CD, I run with 4 buffs permanently on, my energy literally never runs out and I have a lot of procs which improve crit rating etc.

    I could go on for ages, but you get the point. I actually think its a very clever class.

    So it's a good PVP tree?

    So the 20+% parry from talents helps when you parry all those spells, huh?

    It's a stupid tree. The parry talents all need to go. The tree should stand on its own.

    Bend like Reed isn't even good in PVP, some body attacking you with melee swings from the front is somebody you shouldn't have issues with. You can't parry attacks from behind you.

    They are PVE CD's. Not PVP. And they belong in a tank tree (Warlord, probably) if they need to exist at all when Warriors get 1 parry per point of strength (scales better than AP).

    So again, I ask you, how is this clever? It does less damage than nearly every other dps tree there is in Rift.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deioth View Post
    Then next time don't drop in with a meaningless postcount++ response.

    Come back with an argument or you will be considered nothing BUT a troll.
    Dude, get a life, honestly. I listed all the things that make Paragons really mobile, quick, effective against physical attacks and strong against most classes. I have not been rude or maliceous, yet you persist to act like the know-all Paragon of virtue. (See what I did there?)

    You haven't given us any proof to validate your argument that "Paragons need fixing". No screen shots, no list of bugs, no videos. Just assumptions, personal opinions and sheep mentality. You just want everybody to agree with you and praise you for your good work. Now, actually go play a paragon, coz its obvious that you haven't. What spec do you roll with? The general cookie cutter molded on these very forums, based on bashing dummies. hahahahahaha I eat noobs like you in Warfronts all night long.

    edit: Marroco, you don't even make sense, so not going to bother with you.
    Last edited by Clipse; 06-06-2011 at 09:33 AM.

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