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Thread: [REVAMP] Deioth's Paragon Overhaul

  1. #31
    Rift Chaser Garethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrocco View Post
    I would take the up-front nerf to scale off statistics better.
    Agreed, I like the proposed changes and think SLI needs to go - i was just refuting the above poster
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  2. #32
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tisch View Post
    i like alot of your ideas bud but i cant say i really like the SLI thing or the touch of tranquility

    ill explain

    touch of tranquility is a key thing to the paragon especially with multiple people i find. also it just naturally goes with the paragons description in my mind anyways fighting multiple people blades of fury to many enemies dont want to stop put big 1 to sleep finish off others turn back to big 1 last.
    Part of my intention in the reworking was to have abilities usable in as much of the game as possible. ToT is kinda late for leveling but still could be used for it, and it has some clear value in PvP, sure, but I feel like a finisher buff providing AoE support would be very fitting, especially since it works off dual wielding. I can hear where you come from though, it's just that PvP is mostly balanced around warfronts and I can't see ToT being useful there with much consistency thanks to the AoE spam.

    i agree there needs to be a change for SLI but i feel that removing it is not the change needed i think i just simply needs to be put farther up the paragon tree and that shifting blades needs to be off GCD and that SLI needs to be at a 15s timer with the other things you use with it( shifting blades, paired strike)
    IMO paragon is a build up class something that is consistant damage and then a big woof of damage if you let it build (like a hurricane) so IMHO more buff finishers or something of the line would be cool or better effects for them with them off GCD cause we should flow not have to stop for 1.5s for this "Finisher" it completely kills the paragon feel

    the detailed and reasoning is awsome im really glad you put this up here maybe trion will like a few ideas (we can only pray)

    sorry for the grammer and spelling typed in a hurry
    Certainly, all Paragon buff finishers should be off GCD (EVERY non-damage finisher should be for that matter...), but when it comes to SLI it's just a bad ability. It's TOO good. Buffing Shifting Blades by giving it a talent, and improving dual-wield value through talents, will more than make up for the loss of SLI for the paragon, especially if they got some other finisher buffs as I proposed. Furthermore, moving SLI will only make our current problems worse, because suddenly players are forced to spec deeper into a tree they might not want to just for competitive DPS. The only way to fix the warrior calling's issues is to wipe the skill off the map and tweak from there. I also mentioned that Paragon strikes me as a high consistency damage class (Champion being the burster) through buff finishers, and I tried to keep true to that, but SLI needs to be gone and gotten rid of. Making it DW only, or deeper into the tree, or both, will only make our current situation worse. Much worse. It MUST be removed and the entire calling tweaked from there.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

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  3. #33
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tieral View Post
    I am a warrior.

    As a number of players are already capable of doing 900-1200dps with the paragon the changes you suggest (all of them significant buffs) would push warrior dps to roughly 1500 even for unskilled players that couldn't be bothered to maintain SLI. Probably, the dps increase would be a lot more in PVE if they started to reflect AOE melee damage from bosses like the Duke.

    I am not going to even mention reflecting ranged damage in PvP for 3 attacks. Mages will not be happy if their 6 second cast Cinderburst does nothing (as well as their next 2 casts) while the warrior charges them and kills them in 2 global cooldowns. They can already do that btw if they want in many circumstances, but at least not while invincible to ranged damage.

    I found the post to be poorly thought out. Points for effort and a clean layout, but the changes amount to little more than I want to be stronger than everyone else.

    When suggesting class changes it would be wise to consider the overall effect on all of the classes as well as the game in general, rather than asking for a big shiny "I win" laser.
    For the record, I mentioned I've no real experience with Paragon. I started with a two-hander, I'll remain with one, and always be a BM mainspec with champion secondary.. I'd also like to remind you that I want you to hear my proposals while under the assumption all other warrior souls are viable to 51 points because I understand that such an overhaul, in the current metagame and design, could result in some pretty major OP issues.

    As for the Improved Predictable Movements, it's DEflection, not reflection, and for projectiles. Instant hit spells wouldn't count (though I don't know if Cinderburst is instant of projected). One of the big issues facing DPS warriors in PVP currently is our lack of survivability. This was one attempt to amend that for the Paragon, as I've other ideas and suggestions in the works for other souls (Beastmaster is already posted, too, click the link in my sig). I also wanted the ability to be a bit more helpful in raids and dungeons. Naturally, special case tweaks can be made, caps to reflected damage can be made, so it doesn't become godly.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

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  4. #34
    Prophet of Telara
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    Tier 0

    Combat Precision: Passive
    Current Iteration: Non-finishers ignore 1/2/3/4/5% armor
    Suggested Change: Physical attacks with one-handed weapons ignore 1/2/3/4/5% of armor per melee weapon equipped.

    One thing I've noticed with Warrior is that it has very, very limited off soul options, should just change it to 1~5% ignore armor per melee weapon so that two-handers can still benefit from putting points into Paragon. No reason to give two-handers 0 useful tier 1 passives. This would give dual wielding an advantage, but still offer use for other combos.


    Tier 1
    Predictable Movements: Finisher, 2 minute cooldown
    Current Iteration: The next 1/2/3 melee attacks for up to 12 seconds are reflected back against the attacker.
    Suggested Change: Stacks 2/3/4 times on use, each stack reflecting melee attacks back against the attacker. Cooldown reduced to 1 minute.

    Still shoddy ability. Bend Like Reed blows it out of the water. Even as a tank you would likely want to use any other finisher. If it were a combo builder instead of finisher might actually make it more worthwhile.

    Tier 3
    Flowing Strikes: Passive
    Current Iteration: Adds 1/2/3/4/5% crit chance for 6 seconds after critting
    Suggested Change: Moved to Tier 4. Adds 2/3/4/5/6% crit chance for 8 seconds after critting.

    Conditional 6% crit is pretty meh. Would be better jsut as a pure passive or slightly better to justify giving it a potential down time.

    Improved Predictable Movements: [/COLOR]New Talent, Passive
    Effect: When Predictable Movements is active, the Paragon also deflects projectiles, both physical and magical and earn one extra reflection per ability point. Also, if the paragon is hit by a melee-range area effect ability and is not his attacker's target, 50% of the damage is reflected back.

    Makes it better, but still requires more points for a relatively weak ability, especially when you consider a rogue would burn this with weak combo building moves then spam you with a nasty finisher...and if this prevented people from getting combo points you would still end up eating a nasty finisher several seconds later.

    Body and Blade Made One: New Talent, Passive
    Effect: Whenever a melee-range ability with a weapon damage contribution is used, 20/40/60% of the off-hand weapon's damage is added. Weapon damage ranged abilities receive 10/20/30% contribution from the off-hand weapon. Dual Strike and Paired Strike are increased to 80/90/100 for main-hand and 55/65/75 for the off-hand.

    If this would only put dual wielding on par with two-hander this means that without it, damage would be inferior to champion/BM. My main concern with Paragon is that it is always playing catchup, wasting points that other souls could be using to improve their damage, not bring it on par.

    Tier 0
    Dual Strike: Ability Point builder, requires two weapons, level 0
    Change: Strikes with both weapons, adding 75% main hand and 45% off-hand weapon damage + small X. Body and Blade Made One further buff this.

    This leads into my hesitation with Paragon that if you made it eventually superior to two-handing, no one would two-hand. If you make it inferior requiring points to become comparable, it is wasting points to make it practical whereas other combos are boosting their damage.

    Strike Like Iron: Finisher, buffs damage by 12/24/48%, 12 second cooldown, off GCD

    Doing anything to SLI seems a bit dodgy. It would require a lot of rebalancing, which would likely gimp warrior severely for a very long time. It would be nice to avoid using it, but Shifting Blades just doesn't compete.


    Tier 1

    Way of the River: Adds 3% crit chance, level 6
    Change: Adds 3% crit chance and 6% crit chance for follow-ups when using two weapons. This compensates for losing Double Jeopardy until Dervish and Flowing Strikes can be talented when you get Way of the Mountain while making hybrids and paragon secondaries more approachable for reasons other than SLI.

    Doesn't seem sufficient for the huge drop in follow up damage with loss of SLI.

    The Endless Whirlwind: New ability, 10 energy, 2 minute cooldown, level 18
    Change: This replaces Shifting Blades since that moved down to level 2 to cover SLI. Endless Whirlwind immediately coolsdown Shifting Blades. I think the branches have enough finisher buffs now that the roots won't need another here.

    Worthless use of energy to compensate for poorman's SLI, doubly bad.

    Flurry: Finisher, channeled, 60 sec cooldown, 15 energy, level 51
    Change: Costs 25 energy, lasts 16 seconds, 90 second cooldown. Reduces global cooldown by .5 seconds for the duration. Much better than some measly damage ability, no? And much more fitting of a level 51 ability for that matter.

    Not a very strong 51 ability when you consider how quick you would be out of energy. In many situations you can already be striving for energy with a 1sec GCD, halving it would just result in a lot of wasting GCDs waiting for energy.

    Warrior pure builds suffer because all their passive bonuses max out at level 30. They should have superior passive bonuses to give players a reason to actually spend that many points in a soul. Many mage builds have uncapped low tier bonuses, clerics have awesome uncapped level 36+ passives, warriors all max out too early and offer mediocre abilities later on in the root that just don't justify all the hybrid/defensive points that had to invest to get up there.

    Warrior trees in general seem a bit too defensive in nature. It's nice to have some defensive options in their offensive souls, however, you should have strong enough options to ignore them and go for pure DPS passives/abilities.

  5. #35
    Ascendant Marrocco's Avatar
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    Warrior trees in general seem a bit too defensive in nature. It's nice to have some defensive options in their offensive souls, however, you should have strong enough options to ignore them and go for pure DPS passives/abilities.
    If you have the option to subspec tank, then why do defensive talents need to be in offensive trees at all?

    I mean 50% of our baseline souls (outside the Vindicator) are tank souls.

    Warrior survival is much much higher with a shield and there's multiple low-tier talents that provide more mitigation than buffing parry (Armor is better, Block is better) that are available just as low.

    I don't understand this and it's a big reason why Paired Strike, while a cool ability, is worthless as deep as it is. It's effectively a 12 point ability in concerns to dps.

    Way of the Wind, and the 12 points spent after talenting out force of will and Imp. Flowing strikes at level 50 are utter junk in comparison to 12 points in Warlord (5% Armor, Block, 2% dodge). Or just flat damage reduction from Reaver if you are REALLY averse to using a shield and want to Dual-wield (5/5 Power in the blood which is quietly amazing, 5/5 Imbued Armor, and self heals via Soul Feast and Plague bringer from more even more self-healing).

    The fanbois of the current paragon tree don't seem to understand that parry is the most limited of all avoidance:

    1) You can only do it from attacks made in front of you.

    2) It does nothing against magic or elemental attacks which dominate Rift.

    3) It is a "chance to parry." Aka: You are rolling dice vs. what I just posted above regarding the Reaver.

    Also, we have very few Cooldowns. Proper Timing aside (and it's macro'd to finishers), what else is there other than Warlord Calls or a 51 point BM ability which requires you to spend even more garbage points on pet heals than paragon does and doesn't average out to enough of a buff to overcome sticking 37 of those points into Champion and paragon........
    Last edited by Marrocco; 06-08-2011 at 01:15 PM.

  6. #36
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Phage, please learn how to quote and format replies. Blegh

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    One thing I've noticed with Warrior is that it has very, very limited off soul options, should just change it to 1~5% ignore armor per melee weapon so that two-handers can still benefit from putting points into Paragon. No reason to give two-handers 0 useful tier 1 passives. This would give dual wielding an advantage, but still offer use for other combos.
    I can't tell what you mean here. Are you supporting my idea, suggesting it as if it's your own, or did you grammar just messed up? I suggested that it ignore 1/2/3/4/5% for all physical attacks per weapon equipped. DPS builds get use from it and dual-wield starts out with a realistic DW talent.

    Still shoddy ability. Bend Like Reed blows it out of the water. Even as a tank you would likely want to use any other finisher. If it were a combo builder instead of finisher might actually make it more worthwhile.
    The way I picture it being used is you save three APs on a mob/trash pull. You then use them on PM and commit to your initial pull attacks which, by time you're surrounded (especially if you pull with Reaver AoE) means you've got 2 or a full 3 AP again and you've just reduced the alpha strikes of the mobs you're tanking while ensuring extra threat. Now, you can pop a warlord buff or toss in an AoE attack and solidify your threat. But, the little buffing I gave it, especially with the improved talent, benefits PVP and DPS PvE alike.

    Conditional 6% crit is pretty meh. Would be better just as a pure passive or slightly better to justify giving it a potential down time.
    I shy away from pure passives of such magnitude as increased crit. Paragon is already built with buff finishers as opposed to damage finishers. It's a build-up class, so something like this seems very fitting to me. Combined with some of the other changes and additions I've laid out, it wouldn't be hard to keep this up in every fight.

    Makes it better, but still requires more points for a relatively weak ability, especially when you consider a rogue would burn this with weak combo building moves then spam you with a nasty finisher...and if this prevented people from getting combo points you would still end up eating a nasty finisher several seconds later.
    Two points for the buff and its improvement talent seems pretty minimal to me. It has use, was improved on its own to be more consistently valued, and with this helps benefit survivability more in all areas of the game. If you don't think that rogue taking the damage of his combo builders doesn't mean you're lasting longer and he's going down faster isn't useful then I question your tactics. Damage isn't everything if you can outlast your enemy. It's not like you're standing still while be blows through five combos just to break your reflection stack to finally damage you with his finisher.

    If this would only put dual wielding on par with two-hander this means that without it, damage would be inferior to champion/BM. My main concern with Paragon is that it is always playing catchup, wasting points that other souls could be using to improve their damage, not bring it on par.
    I don't understand your concern. It should be imperative for paragons and dual-wield specs to get a talent that provides for their off-hand. Paragon has BEEN playing catch up and it's because dual wielding is an aesthetic choice with no clear bearing on damage. It's perfectly fine that some abilities are generally superior with a two-hander, if players choose to hybridize as such, but a true dual wielder should eventually get the most out of Paragon abilities, and that's what I aimed for with a talent that should have been in since day 1.

    This leads into my hesitation with Paragon that if you made it eventually superior to two-handing, no one would two-hand. If you make it inferior requiring points to become comparable, it is wasting points to make it practical whereas other combos are boosting their damage.
    I'll remind you that I want these suggestions to be taken in the assumption all souls are viable to 51 points, thus two-handers are on par with dual-wielding in enough of the game that it's player choice and playstyle preference that determines weapon and build choice, not the best damage parses. It seems to me that dual-wield and Paragon is intended to be a high consistency of damage whereas two-hander and Champion is intended to be high burst. If the two ultimately even out within a reasonable DPS gap as to be negligible in min-maxing, then we've achieved what needs to be achieved: balance between playstyles. You argue against my suggestion as if two-handers being clearly superior to dual-wields as is the case now is perfectly ok and that if dual-wield became the superior choice we'd only have a problem then. I don't understand your point.

    Doing anything to SLI seems a bit dodgy. It would require a lot of rebalancing, which would likely gimp warrior severely for a very long time. It would be nice to avoid using it, but Shifting Blades just doesn't compete.
    It's the source of too many of our problems. Trion could give warriors a blanket 30% buff to every damaging ability, cut SLI from the Paragon tree, and we could tweak from there. Of course Shifting Blades doesn't compete to a massive flat damage buff! NOTHING good can come of keeping SLI, nor changing it in some way such as what it does or what level one gets it at. It needs to be removed for the greater good of the game and replaced. Shifting Blades just makes the most sense, and it now has a talent to improve it.
    Doesn't seem sufficient for the huge drop in follow up damage with loss of SLI.
    I wasn't addressing SLI, I was addressing the removal of Double Jeopardy to make up for crit loss.

    Worthless use of energy to compensate for poorman's SLI, doubly bad.
    "Poor man's SLI"? What does that even mean? Strike Like Iron isn't even a very Paragon-like ability as it's just flat damage boost. Makes more sense being Champion if anything because of that. But SLI is a horrible ability that goes against the soul system's whole point and purpose while making balancing warriors that much more difficult because we're piss weak without it and only competitive with it.

    Not a very strong 51 ability when you consider how quick you would be out of energy. In many situations you can already be striving for energy with a 1sec GCD, halving it would just result in a lot of wasting GCDs waiting for energy.
    If energy issues are found to be too major for such an ability, then things can be tweaked. The idea is for the Paragon to have something befitting of their playstyle, their attacks, and of a 51 point ability. Also, keep in mind Serenity, with my proposals, would proc more often. We'd have to see it in practice to see what the energy issues would be, and if that's your only real concern here to say no to a vastly superior choice over a crap channeled damage move, then your argument isn't swaying me in the least.

    Warrior pure builds suffer because all their passive bonuses max out at level 30. They should have superior passive bonuses to give players a reason to actually spend that many points in a soul. Many mage builds have uncapped low tier bonuses, clerics have awesome uncapped level 36+ passives, warriors all max out too early and offer mediocre abilities later on in the root that just don't justify all the hybrid/defensive points that had to invest to get up there.

    Warrior trees in general seem a bit too defensive in nature. It's nice to have some defensive options in their offensive souls, however, you should have strong enough options to ignore them and go for pure DPS passives/abilities.
    It's quite possible that our maxing out from passives is part of the problem. The other is that our deep roots lack the value and impact to make them worth the "worthless" talents necessary to get them. If our talents were better overall, we'd see more 51s. If the 32+ abilities were buffed, we'd see more 51s. The biggest issue as I see it is that there are too many excellent low-tier talents and roots to make dedicating to a single soul less attractive. I also fail to see why warriors shouldn't have some survivability and defensive tools in their DPS trees, especially if they can in turn be used as a form of damage or a tool to ensure they remain consistent in their damage. This goes doubly so when compared to the other callings that get many defensive and survivability talents and roots in their offensive souls.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

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  7. #37
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deioth View Post
    Phage, please learn how to quote and format replies.
    I did not feel the desire or need to add quotes to a dozen different points when they were already delimited by your color coding.

    The main distinction from your Combat Precision is the wording
    "Physical attacks with one-handed weapons ignore 1/2/3/4/5% of armor per melee weapon equipped"
    vs.
    "Physical attacks ignore 1/2/3/4/5% of armor per melee weapon equipped"

    ie sword & board and two-handers receive 1~5% while dual wielding receive 2~10%. Your remake would give two-handers no worthwhile tier 1 passives from the Paragon tree, which decreasing its viability for an off soul hardly seems your intent (in fact it would only benefit for 3 out of the first 10 points spent in it).

    Paragon offers a lot of hybrid offense/defense options, so I can understand why you would want to retain Predictable Movements, but the issue is that the likelihood of using Paragon in an actual tank spec is slim since it offers no consistent damage mitigation. Pretty much all the tank souls give you solid passives so there is no reason to waste soul points for things that require GCDs or have conditional uptimes, which means all these abilities like Predictable Movements are just wasting spots that should be for DPS.

    As far as defensive abilities for DPS in PvE, most DPS die to auto-attacks from pulling hate and not special attacks. You can eat a spell or two, you can eat a single target or aoe ability, but they occur far less frequently than auto-attacks, which make them more manageable and less of a threat. Bend like the Reed is an awesome ability because it essentially gives you auto-attack avoidance for the full duration, which is longer than your improved PM and only requires a single point.

    Paragon will likely never be as viable as BM or Champion specifically because it utterly lacks point versatility for 90% of the points in it. You can place 32 points into Paragon and you've maxed out every DPS passive and ability. If you go ranged, it only requires 30. Everything beyond those are wasted.

    I shy away from pure passives of such magnitude as increased crit. Paragon is already built with buff finishers as opposed to damage finishers. It's a build-up class, so something like this seems very fitting to me. Combined with some of the other changes and additions I've laid out, it wouldn't be hard to keep this up in every fight.
    The point is that they aren't really better than a straight passive, but can have downtimes. They will likely never be up at the start of the fight, they will likely go down anytime you stop DPSing, etc. There is no reason to spend points into a class if they are inferior to another class. It's exactly why no tank would ever go passed two points into the Paragon, there are just superior options.

    It would likely be better to have Duality of Mind, Double Jeopardy, and Flowing Strikes all share a similar class type, like a BM's Bonds, and then offer an improved passive that would increase their efficacy by 10~50% and duration by 20~100%. This way you could spend the points and have a Flowing Strikes that stays up for longer and gives 7.5% crit, which would at least give you a reason to pick it over a straight passive.

    Two points for the buff and its improvement talent seems pretty minimal to me. It has use, was improved on its own to be more consistently valued, and with this helps benefit survivability more in all areas of the game. If you don't think that rogue taking the damage of his combo builders doesn't mean you're lasting longer and he's going down faster isn't useful then I question your tactics. Damage isn't everything if you can outlast your enemy. It's not like you're standing still while be blows through five combos just to break your reflection stack to finally damage you with his finisher.
    Remember that Paragon is an offensive soul and should for the most part be offensive. It's fine for some PvP/solo bells and whistles but the core of it should be offensive. Right now 60% of the soul points spent in it are offensive and 40% are defensive...that's pretty shoddy for an offensive soul. Over 80% of BM is offensive or utility, almost all of Rift Blade is offensive, and almost all of Champion is offensive. And again you basically hit 30 points into Paragon and are done, regardless of whatever else is farther in the root.

    I don't understand your concern. It should be imperative for paragons and dual-wield specs to get a talent that provides for their off-hand. Paragon has BEEN playing catch up and it's because dual wielding is an aesthetic choice with no clear bearing on damage. It's perfectly fine that some abilities are generally superior with a two-hander, if players choose to hybridize as such, but a true dual wielder should eventually get the most out of Paragon abilities, and that's what I aimed for with a talent that should have been in since day 1.
    My concern is balance. If dual-wieliding is inferior and remains at best on par you will never use it beyond flavor. If you muck up the scaling and make it superior to two-handers you will never see a Champion again, except for flavor. Your suggested tweaks seem like many of them are lackluster, too defensive, or way too powerful. I offered my feedback and suggestions for what I felt seemed more balanced.

    It isn't that I am saying the relation of dual wielding to two-handers is acceptable as it is, but a simple rescaling to put the weapon base of two weapons on par to a two-hander would do far more good than attempting to create a tiered, expensive string of talents that will eventually outshine two hander's DPS by at least 30% weapon damage for every ability you use.

    I wasn't addressing SLI, I was addressing the removal of Double Jeopardy to make up for crit loss.
    SLI in many builds is the only reason you would ever use followup attacks. Basically any combo builder with a cooldown does more damage or offers more utility.

    Dual Strike with Deadly Grace is 100% superior to EVERY follow up attack, (weapon+100~104)*1.27 damage compared to Rising Waterfall's 120%*weapon+107~111.

    You cannot look at followup attacks without always considering SLI, that's basically all there is to it.

    Also, keep in mind Serenity, with my proposals, would proc more often.
    PvP passives should be more prevalent in PvP souls. Defensive passives should be more prevalent in defensive souls. Serenity is an awesome ability, but because Paragon is so hybridized the entire class fails. It is inferior mitigation than a tank soul for the points spent in it, its "unique" weapon style is inferior to two-handers, its riddled with tons of passive abilities that have downtimes, yet are on par to the static passive bonuses.

    If you want DPS you go two-hand. If you want to PvP you go sword & board. Dual Wielding is inferior because Trion tried to clump both defense and offense into a single soul and ended up with warrior's 2 point wonder.

    It's quite possible that our maxing out from passives is part of the problem. The other is that our deep roots lack the value and impact to make them worth the "worthless" talents necessary to get them. If our talents were better overall, we'd see more 51s. If the 32+ abilities were buffed, we'd see more 51s. The biggest issue as I see it is that there are too many excellent low-tier talents and roots to make dedicating to a single soul less attractive. I also fail to see why warriors shouldn't have some survivability and defensive tools in their DPS trees, especially if they can in turn be used as a form of damage or a tool to ensure they remain consistent in their damage. This goes doubly so when compared to the other callings that get many defensive and survivability talents and roots in their offensive souls.
    There are many excellent low-tier talents, but that isn't inherently bad. The bigger issue is just that the higher up abilities are too weak for how many non-DPS points you need to spend to get there. The higher abilities should be buffed to actually give players a reason to get them. Personally I think that the other souls all benefit far more than warrior from their uncapped passives. If Teachings of the Five Rings, Two-handed Specialization, Rift Fury, and BM all had tweaks to where you would actually want to invest passed 30 points in them then it wouldn't be nearly as detrimental to give them tons of defensive or utility based skills, since at least per point you would still benefit from increased weapon damage as well as gaining access to higher abilities.

    Personally I really like dual wielding so I really hope Paragon does get changed, I just hope that it is far more offensive in the future than the awkward hybrid status it is now.

  8. #38
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    I did not feel the desire or need to add quotes to a dozen different points when they were already delimited by your color coding.
    If you don't want to take the time to write out a few open-quote and close-quote codes, then don't reply, because that was very annoying to clean up when I made my response. It was also difficult to read. The quote tags exist for reason

    The main distinction from your Combat Precision is the wording
    "Physical attacks with one-handed weapons ignore 1/2/3/4/5% of armor per melee weapon equipped"
    vs.
    "Physical attacks ignore 1/2/3/4/5% of armor per melee weapon equipped"

    ie sword & board and two-handers receive 1~5% while dual wielding receive 2~10%. Your remake would give two-handers no worthwhile tier 1 passives from the Paragon tree, which decreasing its viability for an off soul hardly seems your intent (in fact it would only benefit for 3 out of the first 10 points spent in it).
    Editing oversight. Two-handers and sword'n'board would get 1/2/3/4/5%. Dual-wield would get 2/4/6/8/10% because it's per melee weapon. Sorry for the confusion.

    Paragon offers a lot of hybrid offense/defense options, so I can understand why you would want to retain Predictable Movements, but the issue is that the likelihood of using Paragon in an actual tank spec is slim since it offers no consistent damage mitigation. Pretty much all the tank souls give you solid passives so there is no reason to waste soul points for things that require GCDs or have conditional uptimes, which means all these abilities like Predictable Movements are just wasting spots that should be for DPS.
    Champion, Beastmaster, and Riftblade have defense and/or survivability in their talents and even some roots. There's no reason why paragon shouldn't. Also, I did mention that I have no real experience with Paragon, so if I'm thinking that Predictable Movements is something it isn't, I apologize. However, that said, the idea is to promote the soul system to its fullest and provide players with the most options possible so that they can play how they wish to play. Players should feel an offensive off-soul for tanking builds can be a viable option. I should also mention that I have ideas working out for Warlord that would set him up as a shieldless tank to give him a more defining feature, but that's beside the point.

    As far as defensive abilities for DPS in PvE, most DPS die to auto-attacks from pulling hate and not special attacks. You can eat a spell or two, you can eat a single target or aoe ability, but they occur far less frequently than auto-attacks, which make them more manageable and less of a threat. Bend like the Reed is an awesome ability because it essentially gives you auto-attack avoidance for the full duration, which is longer than your improved PM and only requires a single point.
    I have a feeling you're looking too narrowly into everything. You're making the assumption that tanks should only take defensive souls. I call bullspat on that. Aside from the fact that clerics and rogues mix and match for their single tank soul, to suggest that warriors should be forced into only defensive souls for tanking goes against the very soul system we have. I should find reason to take 51 in a tank soul and split the remaining 15 between two offensives if I so chose, either for utility, extra defenses, or any number of things. Currently, that isn't the case, when I very much should have that freedom of choice.

    Paragon will likely never be as viable as BM or Champion specifically because it utterly lacks point versatility for 90% of the points in it. You can place 32 points into Paragon and you've maxed out every DPS passive and ability. If you go ranged, it only requires 30. Everything beyond those are wasted.
    I don't understand your point. Are you saying it's a waste now, or it'd be a waste if my proposals were actually what Paragon is? Are you making an argument against my ideas based on the current design of our souls or is it against my ideas if they WERE the current design!?

    The point is that they aren't really better than a straight passive, but can have downtimes. They will likely never be up at the start of the fight, they will likely go down anytime you stop DPSing, etc. There is no reason to spend points into a class if they are inferior to another class. It's exactly why no tank would ever go passed two points into the Paragon, there are just superior options.

    It would likely be better to have Duality of Mind, Double Jeopardy, and Flowing Strikes all share a similar class type, like a BM's Bonds, and then offer an improved passive that would increase their efficacy by 10~50% and duration by 20~100%. This way you could spend the points and have a Flowing Strikes that stays up for longer and gives 7.5% crit, which would at least give you a reason to pick it over a straight passive.
    There's nothing wrong with that kind of downtime, especially if it can be easily upturned for the great majority of a fight. I also think it that passives like these are the more balancable way to go. If we got Paragon "Bonds" that increased crit chances with talents to improve them and they worked with each other, we'd risk another SLI that everyone must have or they're gimping themselves. SLI is the source of most all of our problems right now, at least insofar as DPSing is concerned, because it's so good that we're severely gimping ourselves without it. I do NOT want to see another skill like it consolidating passives into buffs.

    Remember that Paragon is an offensive soul and should for the most part be offensive. It's fine for some PvP/solo bells and whistles but the core of it should be offensive. Right now 60% of the soul points spent in it are offensive and 40% are defensive...that's pretty shoddy for an offensive soul. Over 80% of BM is offensive or utility, almost all of Rift Blade is offensive, and almost all of Champion is offensive. And again you basically hit 30 points into Paragon and are done, regardless of whatever else is farther in the root.
    Again, you seem to be arguing against my ideas as if they are each being taken separately rather than jointly. You seem to be arguing as if the only idea I've offered is regarding Predictable Movements and left the rest of the soul tree unsupportive of dual wielding and counter to its apparent intended playstyle. My ideas are giving offensive utility to defensive abilities and have overall, in my opinion, greatly benefited Paragon's offensive intention. Maybe today's paragon is "30 points and you're done" but I would hope my ideas would mean this is no longer the case.

    My concern is balance. If dual-wieliding is inferior and remains at best on par you will never use it beyond flavor. If you muck up the scaling and make it superior to two-handers you will never see a Champion again, except for flavor. Your suggested tweaks seem like many of them are lackluster, too defensive, or way too powerful. I offered my feedback and suggestions for what I felt seemed more balanced.
    If dual-wielding remained at best on par and would never be used beyond flavor... THAT'S BALANCE! That's the whole damn point! Players should want to play dual-wielding because they want to, not because it's the best spec. I also don't see very much feedback as to what you'd suggest, just critique saying that we have SLI and Paragon is too defensive therefor sucks. I'm beginning to wonder if you really read everything I posted.

    It isn't that I am saying the relation of dual wielding to two-handers is acceptable as it is, but a simple rescaling to put the weapon base of two weapons on par to a two-hander would do far more good than attempting to create a tiered, expensive string of talents that will eventually outshine two hander's DPS by at least 30% weapon damage for every ability you use.
    I also made it clear on two separate occasions in my OP that my suggestions for the Paragon soul were to be taken on the assumption that all other souls are currently viable to 51 points, meaning that two-handed specs are already at an acceptable level in hybrids and in pure Champion. Paragon's abilities were not designed with the off-hand weapon in mind seemingly at all, hence the recommendations of talents and passives to work from the off-hand while still retaining viability in Paragon as a hybrid soul without using dual-wield.

    SLI in many builds is the only reason you would ever use followup attacks. Basically any combo builder with a cooldown does more damage or offers more utility.
    Uhh, the reason I use follow up attacks is because they're stronger than basic attacks or are off GCD by virtue of being reactives. This point of yours literally makes no sense. SLI in many builds is there so that we have competitive damage, because without it we're clearly underpowered by comparison to other callings.

    Dual Strike with Deadly Grace is 100% superior to EVERY follow up attack, (weapon+100~104)*1.27 damage compared to Rising Waterfall's 120%*weapon+107~111.
    And, again, you're looking at my ideas separately and not jointly. Aside from Deadly Grace becoming a very powerful talent, there are others that would provide Rising Waterfall with contributing damage from the off-hand. You also seem to be forgetting I reworked Dual Strike (and Paired, while we're at it) to work off both weapons as well rather than merely require two. I'd highly recommend at this point that you re-read my entire post again and take everything in jointly, as if everything would be implemented as is, and based on the merits of the suggestions rather than any math or numbers detailed.

    You cannot look at followup attacks without always considering SLI, that's basically all there is to it.
    That makes zero sense. Especially since, from what I remember, I wasn't getting double contribution from SLI on follow ups anyways. I could hit 400 with Rising Waterfall at level 46 with SLI on and my Fierce Strike would be in the low to mid 300's. Seemed like both were only getting 48%. Now, I need not repeat myself more than this: SLI is the core of many of our issues and it must be dealt with. Period. If Paragon follow-ups truly lost value, then some of SLI's bonus damage for follow ups can be consolidated into another passive. Force of Will would be a good candidate.

    PvP passives should be more prevalent in PvP souls. Defensive passives should be more prevalent in defensive souls. Serenity is an awesome ability, but because Paragon is so hybridized the entire class fails. It is inferior mitigation than a tank soul for the points spent in it, its "unique" weapon style is inferior to two-handers, its riddled with tons of passive abilities that have downtimes, yet are on par to the static passive bonuses.
    Hence why I worked to create offensive utility through defensive cooldowns and passives. Half the problem is that Paragon, currently, in the sense of it being "hybrid", is that nothing of its defenses are working towards its offenses. I was hoping to address that and feel that I made some rather reasonable suggestions. Their defense, in my ideas, provides utility towards offense.

    If you want DPS you go two-hand. If you want to PvP you go sword & board. Dual Wielding is inferior because Trion tried to clump both defense and offense into a single soul and ended up with warrior's 2 point wonder.
    Hence my so-big-it-required-two-separate-posts-due-to-character-cap post to offer ideas to mesh the defense with offense in a unique and (hopefully) fun way.

    There are many excellent low-tier talents, but that isn't inherently bad. The bigger issue is just that the higher up abilities are too weak for how many non-DPS points you need to spend to get there. The higher abilities should be buffed to actually give players a reason to get them. Personally I think that the other souls all benefit far more than warrior from their uncapped passives. If Teachings of the Five Rings, Two-handed Specialization, Rift Fury, and BM all had tweaks to where you would actually want to invest passed 30 points in them then it wouldn't be nearly as detrimental to give them tons of defensive or utility based skills, since at least per point you would still benefit from increased weapon damage as well as gaining access to higher abilities.
    Part of it all is that late-tier abilities and passives aren't terribly beneficial or strong, yes, so they should instead be made clearly superior, but the low-to-mid should still provide players with enough incentive to hybridize souls. Uncapping the passives is a cop out and suddenly hybrids in the warrior calling would disappear. The way to fix it would be to play off of the playstyle of each soul and truly make them shine. We must ensure that hybrid and primary/secondary builds are still viable.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
    Beastmaster - Paragon - Warlord Coming Soon

    Please Click, Read, And Respond! Thank you!

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