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Thread: The Crux of the Sab argument

  1. #1
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    Default The Crux of the Sab argument

    I see alot of people crying about how OP Sab are; How big their numbers get, how good they are at this, that, etc. I've also seen alot of people defending them, and I have yet to see someone point this out. The big difference between Sab and other ranged DPS classes (mage included) is that we are not obviously doing anything to you, until its too late.

    I'm sure most of you have played other MMO's. When a ranged DPS gets on you, you notice -
    Your hp is going down or
    your cast time is going up or
    your mana is being drained or
    you're being snared, Etc.

    The Link between "this graphical effect is hitting me" (be it arrow, lightning bolt, spikey ball, fireball, etc), and the effect is immediate. You react immediately, you make a snap decision on your course of action -
    you going to pull back out of range or
    you decide to try to kill them first or
    you cc them or
    you heal yourself (if possible), etc.

    With a Sab its different. Little yellow stars are hitting you, but nothing is happening. In the chaos of black garden or a big brawl in the middle of White Steppes, you might not notice. Your not losing health,mana,speed, etc. Your not making a snap decision, because nothing noticeable is happening. Then the detonate comes, and you've lost 35-50% of your health. Your standard responses probably arent going to work - trying to get out of range is hard (you're probably snared), healing isnt going to be easy (you're already at half and the sab is still coming), killing us probably isnt an option (they're at full, you're at half).

    It took me about 5 deaths to equate "little yellow thing hitting me" with "Find the sab and nuetralize him". Just like when a MM or Pyro starts hitting me, I don't ignore him until its too late, I stop what I'm doing and try to figure out what I can do (CC, run, fight back, etc), and you know what, it works.

    So seriously, everyone, learn to play. That's not an insult, or meant derisively - the Sab is unlike the classes most of you are used to playing against, you really will need to learn how to counter it. Once you do, they'll be just like every other ranged DPS, good against some classes, less so against others, and absolute nightmare if you just ignore them, but just another DPS class if you dont.

    So, good luck.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by cygnarite View Post
    I see alot of people crying about how OP Sab are; How big their numbers get, how good they are at this, that, etc. I've also seen alot of people defending them, and I have yet to see someone point this out. The big difference between Sab and other ranged DPS classes (mage included) is that we are not obviously doing anything to you, until its too late.

    I'm sure most of you have played other MMO's. When a ranged DPS gets on you, you notice -
    Your hp is going down or
    your cast time is going up or
    your mana is being drained or
    you're being snared, Etc.

    The Link between "this graphical effect is hitting me" (be it arrow, lightning bolt, spikey ball, fireball, etc), and the effect is immediate. You react immediately, you make a snap decision on your course of action -
    you going to pull back out of range or
    you decide to try to kill them first or
    you cc them or
    you heal yourself (if possible), etc.

    With a Sab its different. Little yellow stars are hitting you, but nothing is happening. In the chaos of black garden or a big brawl in the middle of White Steppes, you might not notice. Your not losing health,mana,speed, etc. Your not making a snap decision, because nothing noticeable is happening. Then the detonate comes, and you've lost 35-50% of your health. Your standard responses probably arent going to work - trying to get out of range is hard (you're probably snared), healing isnt going to be easy (you're already at half and the sab is still coming), killing us probably isnt an option (they're at full, you're at half).

    It took me about 5 deaths to equate "little yellow thing hitting me" with "Find the sab and nuetralize him". Just like when a MM or Pyro starts hitting me, I don't ignore him until its too late, I stop what I'm doing and try to figure out what I can do (CC, run, fight back, etc), and you know what, it works.

    So seriously, everyone, learn to play. That's not an insult, or meant derisively - the Sab is unlike the classes most of you are used to playing against, you really will need to learn how to counter it. Once you do, they'll be just like every other ranged DPS, good against some classes, less so against others, and absolute nightmare if you just ignore them, but just another DPS class if you dont.

    So, good luck.

    This man speaks the truth. Premades have no issue dealing with sabos, and good players understand how to react to them. The issue is with people playing bad and not paying attention to debuffs, not with the class.
    Last edited by blahdot3h; 02-22-2011 at 10:10 AM.

  3. #3
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    Totally agreed with the OP.
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    Most people suffer from pretty bad tunnel-vision in both PvE and PvP, which is why finding other players with good situational awareness and who can keep PvP goals and objectives in mind is so important.

    I've had fights in warfronts where I, as a bard, stood on one side of the central area in Black Garden and killed 3 players one after another with Cadence+Chord+Coda. All-told, it took around a minute, but never once did a single one of them (2 MM/Rangers and a Pyro) stop shooting people in the middle to deal with me, either via CC or just killing me.

    Saboteurs exploit this because of their burst, and people hate getting killed (seemingly) out of the blue. This is also why world ganking gets so many complaints, and the same with stunlocks... It feels like they couldn't have done anything to prevent their death, when it is really far from the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinadass View Post
    Most people suffer from pretty bad tunnel-vision in both PvE and PvP, which is why finding other players with good situational awareness and who can keep PvP goals and objectives in mind is so important.

    I've had fights in warfronts where I, as a bard, stood on one side of the central area in Black Garden and killed 3 players one after another with Cadence+Chord+Coda. All-told, it took around a minute, but never once did a single one of them (2 MM/Rangers and a Pyro) stop shooting people in the middle to deal with me, either via CC or just killing me.

    Saboteurs exploit this because of their burst, and people hate getting killed (seemingly) out of the blue. This is also why world ganking gets so many complaints, and the same with stunlocks... It feels like they couldn't have done anything to prevent their death, when it is really far from the truth.

    And it's this reason that Trion isn't catering to the bad players and nerfing the classes damage to a point that they are worthless. Their damage is fine if you play against them. Just know that if you're fighting a sab it's a damage race, cc them or kill them. Trying to run will just end up getting you killed.

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    I then suggest that all Sabs try to come up with a solution that is palatable to all parties involved. Because right now, your class is on the guillotine.

    You could suggest a cooldown on detonate

    You could suggest a much stronger graphic showing charges being placed on someone (that little arrow is hard to notice). Let's face it. There is NO mistaking a pyromancer attacking you. The charges could show up on your character as a bomb with a big blinking light on it.

    You could suggest a damage reduction to the charges.


    You should suggest something or suffer the consequences.
    Last edited by yewkon; 02-22-2011 at 10:33 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #7
    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yewkon View Post
    I then suggest that all Sabs try to come up with a solution that is palatable to all parties involved. Because right now, your class is on the guillotine.

    You could suggest a cooldown on detonate

    You could suggest a much stronger graphic showing charges being placed on someone (that little arrow is hard to notice). Let's face it. There is NO mistaking a pyromancer attacking you. The charges could show up on your character as a bomb with a big blinking light on it.

    You could suggest a damage reduction to the charges.


    You should suggest something or suffer the consequences.
    Just because some players are QQing about a soul or zone or any other aspect of the game does not mean that Trion is going to agree and do anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yewkon View Post
    I then suggest that all Sabs try to come up with a solution that is palatable to all parties involved. Because right now, your class is on the guillotine.

    You could suggest a cooldown on detonate

    You could suggest a much stronger graphic showing charges being placed on someone (that little arrow is hard to notice). Let's face it. There is NO mistaking a pyromancer attacking you. The charges could show up on your character as a bomb with a big blinking light on it.

    You could suggest a damage reduction to the charges.


    You should suggest something or suffer the consequences.
    You're acting like you're setting an ultimatum. Trion doesn't really care what a few people think, they care more about the majority of players and what the alpha players suggest. I doubt you could get even a hundred legitimate signatures for nerfing the saboteurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yewkon View Post
    I then suggest that all Sabs try to come up with a solution that is palatable to all parties involved. Because right now, your class is on the guillotine.

    You could suggest a cooldown on detonate

    You could suggest a much stronger graphic showing charges being placed on someone (that little arrow is hard to notice). Let's face it. There is NO mistaking a pyromancer attacking you. The charges could show up on your character as a bomb with a big blinking light on it.

    You could suggest a damage reduction to the charges.


    You should suggest something or suffer the consequences.


    The fact that Sabo's have only had their charges cleansable in the last 4 patches, makes me feel like Trion knows their damage is fine, and no changes need to be made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yewkon View Post
    I then suggest that all Sabs try to come up with a solution that is palatable to all parties involved. Because right now, your class is on the guillotine.
    Unlike QQuiters... I don't care. If Sab get's hit, I'll get over it and I'll adjust. Why? Because that's what real gamers do. The last thing you'll see is me coming to the forums crying about it and threatening to roll another class like someone out there actually cares.

    Soooooooo many whiners. It's like Rift is full of people who've never played an MMO before or experienced rebalancing. Shocker.
    Last edited by XFracture; 02-22-2011 at 10:41 AM.

  11. #11
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    People will get used to noticing charges over time. I think a lot of the argument on the forums comes when players who can deal with sabs see the rest of their team getting utterly demolished by them, and assuming it'll always be this way. People will improve, some slower than others. Some maybe never, but part of the Sab's effectiveness comes from an unaware or potentially distracted target, and later in the game you'll probably see more sabs capitalizing on distracted targets or targets who can't do much about it rather than the unaware/hurpderps which will be little and few.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by yewkon View Post
    I then suggest that all Sabs try to come up with a solution that is palatable to all parties involved. Because right now, your class is on the guillotine.

    You could suggest a cooldown on detonate

    You could suggest a much stronger graphic showing charges being placed on someone (that little arrow is hard to notice). Let's face it. There is NO mistaking a pyromancer attacking you. The charges could show up on your character as a bomb with a big blinking light on it.

    You could suggest a damage reduction to the charges.


    You should suggest something or suffer the consequences.
    I'll suggest people learn how to play, you specifically apparently. Only took me 5 deaths to notice Sab charges incoming. Of the times I don't notice, and get pasted, I dont cry about how powerful Sab's are - I knock myself for sucking so hard that I didn't notice a class setting up to demolish me.

    If you cant learn to notice, well, life sucks, wear a hat.
    Last edited by cygnarite; 02-22-2011 at 10:53 AM.

  13. #13
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    I agree with the OP,

    I started playing in Beta 4 but before I got into the game I had read so many QQ posts about Sabos that when I rolled my cleric I quickly taught myself to be afraid of them.

    Having just concluded Beta 7, I can honestly say they aren't my most feared soul anymore.

    The complain that back-end damage in great amounts is difficult is 100% true. Difficult. Not impossible. Noticing blast charges is tough, I'll admit, amidst the massive amount of graphics going into a WF. But after you realize there is a Sabo around, you're going to start looking for those charges. Sabo's certainly aren't in EVERY WF I play, and if I encounter one in World PvP they probably aren't going to beat me 1v1, I've found. So I stand beside the rest of you in your statements. OP got it right on. Sabos are great for separating the skilled from the unskilled. Sabos may continue facerolling those who aren't prepared to deal with them, but I'm very glad they've been designed in a way (especially after making their charges cleansable), that an observant player has methods of response.

    Truly scary souls have no retort. There are plenty of ways to counter a sabo, thus they are not truly scary.

    VK's on the other hand... hoo boy, I've got some practice to do against those ****ers.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cygnarite View Post
    I'll suggest people learn how to play, you specifically apparently. Only took me 5 deaths to notice Sab charges incoming. Of the times I don't notice, and get pasted, I dont cry about how powerful Sab's are - I knock myself for sucking so hard that I didn't notice a class setting up to demolish me.

    If you cant learn to notice, well, life sucks, wear a hat.
    And I suggested they make it more obvious to people like you, apparently. I noticed after one death, that a sab was on the opposing team and about 5 seconds into battle to see those little arrows. However, let's say you're out fighting a mob and a sab comes up behind you. Mostly likely you wont see those 5 little arrows, and BANG! you're dead before you had any time to react.

    Any other class and you will have SOME time to react.

    That's the problem with sabs and without some sort of change, they are going to get gutted by the general population demands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yewkon View Post
    And I suggested they make it more obvious to people like you, apparently. I noticed after one death, that a sab was on the opposing team and about 5 seconds into battle to see those little arrows. However, let's say you're out fighting a mob and a sab comes up behind you. Mostly likely you wont see those 5 little arrows, and BANG! you're dead before you had any time to react.

    Any other class and you will have SOME time to react.

    That's the problem with sabs and without some sort of change, they are going to get gutted by the general population demands.
    Man, thanks for coming out as a troll so obviously and early in this thread - I'd hate to have treated you like a real person with a valid opinion.
    Last edited by cygnarite; 02-22-2011 at 11:39 AM.

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