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Thread: lets put DPS numbers into perspective for 'nay' sayers

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    Plane Touched Infamous22's Avatar
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    Default lets put DPS numbers into perspective for 'nay' sayers

    its no hidden thought that melee assassins are rather...dull atm, and i know there are counteless threads about this. and everytime, the non-assassin class, and some assassins are geared outtta there *****es will chime in and say
    "no, you just suck, assassins are fine!".

    quite frankly, this is far from the truth, melee assassins are in need of some "help".
    i dont want to say they are broken, but they are not where they should be.

    now before you start to go off and spit "well you must suck then"....im not here to argue my "leet"ness. i will argue about numbers though

    irregardless, even if im "pro" or even if im a "noob" i will still be doing a linear dmg output..i.e if im pro, then im doing pro dmg on all classes , and if im noob, then im noob dmg on all classes.

    now heres my gripe about it all..im not saying..omg nerf XXX class, nor am i saying omg buff Assassin because we suxorz...but atm, the current output does NOT match up in terms of risk vs reward.

    the classes i test out was Assassin, Ranger,Marksman. ( i left out Sab/Tank, since they are situational/tank)
    now its a golden rule in an MMO..hell even ANY game, that you balance out risk vs reward.

    i.e
    the dmg output of:
    Melee > Range.
    low Defense > high def.

    for example, a ranged magic caster, should do less damage than that same caster at melee range.


    so take a look at these DPS parsers..

    http://img121.imageshack.us/i/markspan1.png/

    the above picture is my avg dps from a marksman.


    Rogue avg dps
    http://img23.imageshack.us/i/rogueavg.png/
    high dps avg:
    http://img88.imageshack.us/i/roguehighavg.png/

    optimal DPS
    Avg dps from Assassin..and this is using highest out put possible
    expose weakness+assassinate+savage.
    http://img37.imageshack.us/i/assassinoptimal.png/

    *keep in mind that my final blow did not crit, nor did my deadeye. deadeye hits for 1100 for me if it crits, while final blow hits 900ish

    2nd pic is a high dps avg..something you would see in WFs on a high spectrum..not really all the time.

    the 3rd pic is from an optimal output,
    expose+jagged+4backstabs+final blow.

    as you can see...my DPS with Ranged classes are SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and most of my builds are optimized for high DPS.


    again, the numbers for you might vary if you repeat this test...hell you might even be doing 500dps on an assassin..but thats not the point of this thread..this is to point out the inconsistency. if you ARE doing 500dps on your assassin, i guarantee you can be doing 700dps on a MM/Ranger.

    something like this is whats irking me.
    first of all, we are both Rogues...so we share same "defense"...and yet MM out DPS me like its no tommorow.

    my Savage strike hits pvp for around 110 ish, while on the flip sde, swift shot...the RANGED attack, deals 135? umm what? not to mention it also has an inherent ability to increase movement speed.

    using the golden rule, lets break it down.
    MM and Assassins are "mirrors" of each other. Assasin=melee high DPS. MM=ranged high dps. no argument there.

    Since MM is Ranged. using the golden rule, we can assume that MM should do less damage than an assassin...BUT assassin got stealth right? so fine, i will give MM the benefit of doubt, and say MMs dmg is in par with assassin, because assassins got stealth, and MMs dont.

    then why are MMs out DPSing Assassins? not to mention swift shots inherent spd++?
    risk vs reward does not add up.
    its no secret that ranged = safer. so why are ranged not balanced around that?

    lets break down assassin versatility vs Ranged Classes.

    Assassin:
    Stealth.
    Dots
    4 sec stun.
    poisons (this really isnt much...)

    MM:
    Speed increase
    AoE Attacks.
    Ranged
    KBs
    Instant Crits
    Skill Recharge
    1000-12000 dmg skills (31pt MM skill)
    higher DPS.

    "but infamous! MMs got a deadzone..where they cant attack!"

    this is the biggest faulty argument i keep seeing.

    first:
    you have a skill that lets you attack in melee range for 15secs...on top of that you have a skill recharge that will make it go 30 if needed...and if you cant drop some one from 35 >5m and then another 30secs later...something is wrong

    2nd:
    if you consider 5m where you cant attack a "deadzone"...then we can say, from 6m-35m (or w.e is max range) is your "activezone". well applying that SAME rules... Assassins have a deadzone of 7-25m..with a activezone of 1-6m. just like how MMs cant cast skill at melee (but only limited to 5m) assassins cant cast their skills at range (but they are now limited to 7-25m) so who has it worse now? the whole deadzone argument is moot. because melee classes have a bigger deadzone than ranged does.


    a common pointer that some people give out is
    "oh assassins not a burst class, use dots! more dots more dots!"

    first of all...we have like 3 dots...and secondly, we would get WTF owned before we can even kill some one in PVP. not to mention they will out heal your dots easy.


    im not saying nerf XX or buff XX..but its pretty evident that assassins are not in par with other classes.
    they have no survivability, and with the ample amount of easy ground AoEs, Stealthing in for a kill in BGs are very risky.

    discuss
    /flame shield on


    *edit
    forgot to mention, my melee weapons are weps from KB, while the gun is a random Quest gun.

    MY STATS:
    http://img577.imageshack.us/i/2011220161218.jpg/
    Last edited by Infamous22; 02-20-2011 at 01:13 PM.
    Rogue.
    i think..therefore i am

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Well, while i agree with you, i've got an Assassin to level 15 which isn't high, as an assassin you can pick your fight.

    That is a huge advantage.

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    Plane Touched Infamous22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangtidy View Post
    Well, while i agree with you, i've got an Assassin to level 15 which isn't high, as an assassin you can pick your fight.

    That is a huge advantage.
    yes and no. though u are right, you can pick a fight...but due to the lower root skill, any class is able to get it. i mean for an optimal MM (with serated blades/poison+crit chance) you already got stealth by investing points into assassin...
    Rogue.
    i think..therefore i am

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    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous22 View Post
    Since MM is Ranged, using the golden rule, we can assume that MM should do less damage than an assassin...BUT assassin got stealth right? so fine, i will give MM the benefit of doubt, and say MMs dmg is in par with assassin, because assassins got stealth, and MMs dont.
    While I agree that having stealth is an advantage for any class I dont agree that with the way this game is implemented it should be a determining factor for dps since any soul setup can spend 4 points into NB or Sin and get the same benefit, including the poison from Sin. NB as a secondary for MM would grant a 15% dps boost across the board for only 10 points spent. I know this thread isnt about secondary souls but to leave them out of the equation seems incomplete.

    I think we would need a dps workup of NB to see how they compare to sins dots/dps. NB is a hybrid melee/ranged class and they shouldnt be able to do more dps than a Sin either.

    Ive seen several posters on this forum stating they were ok with dying if their dots kill the intended targets in pvp.....thats great if you wanna tie....Idk about you guys but I play to win and killing a target after I'm already dead is a hollow victory at best.

    Im all for rangers/MM/Sab to have good sustained dps but the pure burst dmg should be given to the classes with the most risk. This is the first game I think I've played where an assassin style character had to attack and then run away in hopes to live while their dots ticked out. I guess you could always go RS secondary and phase shift after your dots have been applied.
    Last edited by Psyko; 02-20-2011 at 09:08 AM.

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    Shadowlander
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    Even tho "We are not in Azeroth anymore!", some mmorpg rules still applies to Rift. You state one of them:" Risk vs Reward". Unfortunatly, you have it backward.

    Higher risk doesn't mean getting higher dps. In fact, in any games where you can group together in order to down a raid boss, dps has to be the same across the board unless you can "off heal" while doing dps. In the case of Assassins and MMs, they can't heal while they dps. As a result, both needs to have the exact same dps. Otherwise, a group will only have MM or only Assassins.

    Risk vs Reward still applies. But since the assassin is most likely to take more damage, he will get bigger reward in surviability. Leeching poison heals only the rogue and for a very little amount. Bladedancer has a dodge cooldown. Riftstalker plane shifting gives a damage absorbtion shield when you go high enough to benefit from stalker phase.

    You also talk about other points of view. The MM deadzone easy to get out of for the MM, the assassin's vulnerability to kiting and lack of gap closer, the lack of AoE, etc.

    So what do assassin needs? The same exact dps other "pure dps" classes do, but surviability to make up for the fact they have to constantly stay in melee range in order to dps. Risk vs Reward.

    I have made a post regarding improving the assassin gameplay experience. If you think you might have some tweaks to the class, I highly encourage you to post in it :

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...assin-Feedback
    Last edited by Shrodinger; 02-20-2011 at 09:28 AM.

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    Telaran Csmos's Avatar
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    The OP is entirely correct, his Risk vs Reward analysis is correct and yours isn't.

    A ranged class with low risk should have sustained DPS not burst

    A melee class with high risk should have burst DPS not sustained.

    The reason for this is because the melee class has to get in and get out to survive, giving him a very small window of opportunity to output his overall damage, thus needing burst damage.

    While on the other hand, the ranged class has all the time in the world to output his damage and thus requires only sustained damage output.




    Currently, the only way I am able to survive long enough to kill someone is to spec 50/50 sin/rift and plane shift my *** off for the damage shield so that I can last long enough to kill someone, then after that I either die, or cc and attempt to get away. (WTB Vanish midway in the tree rather than last skill)

  7. #7
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    i agree 100% and have been pointing this out all the time even done tickets ingame.

    Biggest problem is final blow deals to low damage way to low.

    My rotation is puncture backstabb up 3 points. now i got my first 5 pointer, after banfultouch to keep buff up after that its up with impale and keep it up aswell as baneful touch as i keep puncture and impale up will doing final blow when 5 combo is up and i got the buffs up.

    the problem is numbers and lack of abilities we got these abilities but nothing else, Serpent strike should not be a 51 pointer it should be replaced with banefultouch imo change it to serpent strike to make it deal as it says + you get the poison buff that you get from baneful touch.

    also since we got poison we need to hit fast to make them procc more often we got nothing that modifies our attackspeed. that is needed. a buff or a combo buff or a talent tree, this is also needed.

    Mobility in pvp is not a problem since there is riftstalker and pvp tree anyway so mobility wich ppl complain about is not any problem at all.

    also i see the marksman and ranger are using our tree and get useful abilities from our tree but the melees dont get anything useful. this is wrong, the tree:s atleast 20-25 points in should be able to be useful talents for sidespecc for melees example instead of there is "your ranged attacks" add your attacks so melee can take use of their trees aswell.

    For an example i would like to have either energy regenration in a tree and also have attackspeed or chance on hit to hit with both weapons. to increase poison procc. wich we cant get, ranger have chance 50% chance on autoattacks to get an additonal ranged autoattack. this would be 10 times more needed in assasintree for an example atleast put it possible to be picked up in assasintree so that ranger or marksman can pick it up in some other tree so we can pick it up aswell, same goes for nightblade they want fast attackspeed aswell for their weapon enhancements to procc.

    This is somthing that should be looked over!


    and as for topic says, yes final blow deals far to low damage! compared to deadeyeshot also nightblades finisher is the same deal, deals to low damage on 5 combopointer compared to deadeyeshot, so its not only assasin its other trees aswell.

    So this is really no discussion either they nerf theirs below ours or buff ours above theirs, but imo it would be best to nerf deadeye some and buff ours so the damage dont become to high and deals to high damage.

    and to ppl who says for pve well you are both anyway only autohitting the boss/mob so it would be unfair, No not really ranged dps dont need to move away as much as melee does wich means if we need to run away 3-6 seconds while they stand safe far away dpsing those 3-6 seconds it will compensate if not even deal more damage than us(if they are good and know the rotation ofcourse) and ofcourse some bosses will allways be x specc or x class will have advantage, however the gap should not be this hard nerfing their finisher and making our finisher deal more damage would result in balance of damage for both and put them on par with eachother due to movement also.

    also ranger/marksman got really awsome root abilities while we have a joke, elusiveness remove replace with something useful, same goes for hidden veil, if they would make us resist damage and melee damage by 90% like cloak of shadows in wow for 3 seconds it would be more fitting.

    also incapitate is melee crowd control out of combat while the nightblades one is 20 yard range either make both melee or both 20 yard range.

    And expose weakness should be changed remove charges and put it as a 1-2 min debuff and reduce the ammount of physical damage it gives or, increase ammount of attack charges by 100% becuse atm with impale puncture on and doing your backstabb/savage strike and finalblow u will have to refresh it each 5 sec...... dont trust me? check rotation again.
    Also we dont have any interupt ability as assasin, give us a kick wich interupts or somthing would be needed both in pvp and pve.

    and no dont come with "you got a stun" stun dont works on bosses and for pvp you will anywya just use your remove stun ability.

    if you dont agree with me after looking into the possiblities mobility dps and survivalness in the talent tree combos marks man can do or ranged can do with our trees and root abilities after checked assasin and nightblade tree.

    Then you are really blind.
    Last edited by Fuzzah; 02-20-2011 at 10:48 AM.

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    Plane Touched Infamous22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyko View Post
    While I agree that having stealth is an advantage for any class I dont agree that with the way this game is implemented it should be a determining factor for dps since any soul setup can spend 4 points into NB or Sin and get the same benefit, including the poison from Sin. NB as a secondary for MM would grant a 15% dps boost across the board for only 10 points spent. I know this thread isnt about secondary souls but to leave them out of the equation seems incomplete.

    I think we would need a dps workup of NB to see how they compare to sins dots/dps. NB is a hybrid melee/ranged class and they shouldnt be able to do more dps than a Sin either.

    Ive seen several posters on this forum stating they were ok with dying if their dots kill the intended targets in pvp.....thats great if you wanna tie....Idk about you guys but I play to win and killing a target after I'm already dead is a hollow victory at best.

    Im all for rangers/MM/Sab to have good sustained dps but the pure burst dmg should be given to the classes with the most risk. This is the first game I think I've played where an assassin style character had to attack and then run away in hopes to live while their dots ticked out. I guess you could always go RS secondary and phase shift after your dots have been applied.

    haha you misread my post. i state the same thing as you. except i was giving the benefit to the range classes.
    Rogue.
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  9. #9
    Telaran
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    31 assassin here.

    While I agree with most of your arguments and philosophy, I'm unsure of your testing methods. What was your assassin rotation again? Are you maximizing backstabs (using stuns for position)? Are you keeping up the finisher that buffs damage on poisoned-weapons? keeping up expose weakness? keeping puncture on target? etc.?

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't feel like my assassin has poor dps. I feel like a dps machine compared to other classes I observe.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Csmos View Post
    The OP is entirely correct, his Risk vs Reward analysis is correct and yours isn't.

    A ranged class with low risk should have sustained DPS not burst

    A melee class with high risk should have burst DPS not sustained.

    The reason for this is because the melee class has to get in and get out to survive, giving him a very small window of opportunity to output his overall damage, thus needing burst damage.

    While on the other hand, the ranged class has all the time in the world to output his damage and thus requires only sustained damage output.


    Currently, the only way I am able to survive long enough to kill someone is to spec 50/50 sin/rift and plane shift my *** off for the damage shield so that I can last long enough to kill someone, then after that I either die, or cc and attempt to get away. (WTB Vanish midway in the tree rather than last skill)


    [B]The damage dont need to be burst, it could be stable instead. instead of jumping to somtimes 900 from 600 have it safe at 750, would make it less RNG based, and tbh we all hate RNG becuse the luckfactor is just so boring, RNG i dont have problem with but to much rng? no thanks hint we got the poison allready.
    but i understand where u going at but the least thing u want on any class either if you pvp or pve is burst you want as stable dps as possible, why well once ppl start to get the pvp stat that burst will be a burst and you dont wanna be overpowered and shine and be op early to later on once ppl obtain gear to become a big joke.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toffle View Post
    31 assassin here.

    While I agree with most of your arguments and philosophy, I'm unsure of your testing methods. What was your assassin rotation again? Are you maximizing backstabs (using stuns for position)? Are you keeping up the finisher that buffs damage on poisoned-weapons? keeping up expose weakness? keeping puncture on target? etc.?

    I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't feel like my assassin has poor dps. I feel like a dps machine compared to other classes I observe.

    You tested dps meter ? if not u should not argue, also the fact is there is alot of ppl that dont know how to play you might feel like you dealing alot more damage than them(maybe you do) but it can be becuse they are just bad and if you would be with a equal good player your dps would fall behind under a bossfight with around 30% if not more.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched
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    Your DPS measure is based off fights lasting 12 seconds maximum?

    MM gets a 100% crit ability skill. I can massively skew DPS umbers on short fights by triggering that skill with a finisher once per fight. sorry, but your numbers are really invalid. Get 50, find a target dummy, hit it for 5minutes with your best DPS rotations, then tell me what your DPS is.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kink View Post
    Your DPS measure is based off fights lasting 12 seconds maximum?

    MM gets a 100% crit ability skill. I can massively skew DPS umbers on short fights by triggering that skill with a finisher once per fight. sorry, but your numbers are really invalid. Get 50, find a target dummy, hit it for 5minutes with your best DPS rotations, then tell me what your DPS is.
    i can give u at launch since i didnt save me dps meter fights i checked fight the other night the diffrence under bossfights and a ran as both optimal dps trees as marksman and ranger with diffrent souls and assasin with the optimal soul par up. and trust me the damage is to low. and yes i did know rotations smoothly. the damage in part of rotation of rogue and ranged is such a joke.

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    Your DPS measure is based off fights lasting 12 seconds maximum?

    MM gets a 100% crit ability skill. I can massively skew DPS umbers on short fights by triggering that skill with a finisher once per fight. sorry, but your numbers are really invalid. Get 50, find a target dummy, hit it for 5minutes with your best DPS rotations, then tell me what your DPS is.
    You really just proved his point right here, when the guy is asking for higher burst potential for assassins in comparison to marksman you came back with an arguement that his marksman dps was skewed because of marksman's incredible burst potential...

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    I'd also like to comment on the assassin's ability to "pick your target" arguement. Everybody that has ever played an MMO or BETA tested one and even touched on a ranged class should know that range is the ultimate ability to pick targets frequently (without setup time). Stealth as it is in this game is broken at best. Its on a cooldown and timered and breaks to aoe AND at least at lower levels is very open to detection, especially at melee range (i.e. assassin).

    My attempt at playing assassin involved MANY fights against equal level characters in pvp where I was forced to actively chase my target while stealthed because they were actively thwarting my attempt to close melee range. How? Because they saw me...

    In conclusion, I would argue that range has always competed with stealth for "pick your target" where in a permanant default stealth game with limited detection it comes down to frequency (ranged) vs effectiveness (stealth), but in a game where stealth is so watered down both sides favor ranged and this arguement should be used against ranged not assassin.

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