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Thread: Assassin as a "come one come all" soul for the rogue calling?

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    Plane Touched vaxatif's Avatar
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    Default Assassin as a "come one come all" soul for the rogue calling?

    I was checking what I could combo with for an assassin build and noticed quite rapidly that only Nightblade and Riftstalker would be of any use, apart maybe from the 5% crit in the Ranger soul.

    That seemed odd because I keep seeing tons of ranged builds going heavily into the assassin build for all the goodies while they'll never even use any of the melee abilities most likely (since you can pretty much shoot people in melee all the time anyway).

    If you go into MM or Ranger souls as an assassin, you'll lose tons of goodies because you'll effectively be trying to do two separate things: melee and ranged.
    If you are a MM and go deep into the assassin tree however, or the nightblade tree, or even the riftstalker tree, nothing restricted so you'll be able to still focus 100% on range AND add to all your soul's bonus all the other souls bonus as well, be it the crit line in assassin, dps boost in nightblade or even protective stuff in riftstalker.
    In each case, it's totally possible for a MM or Ranger primary soul to go 31pts deep into Nightblade or Assassin or Riftstalker and have no change whatsoever to your playstyle (just need to use ranged Nigthblade abilities on top of your other) and you lose nothing whatsoever.
    This is totally impossible for an Assassin as primary. Heck, if you go MM then right from the get go you are forced to take stuff that don't really complement the melee style of the assassin, just non assassin abilties and if you go into Ranger, you can get the crit% and dmg reduction, and that's it...

    So my point is: why are most if not all the ranged souls abilities "ranged weapon" restricted while the assassin/nightblade souls have no such restriction? Why can you have a MM or Ranger with ranged abilities totally boosted by going also deep assassin but can't have an assassin boosted if you go MM or Ranger, seems odd to me.

    Solution? Either restrict all assassin abilities to melee weapons only, including poisons, or remove all the ranged only restrictions on the Ranger and MM abilities, especially stuff as killing focus, double shot, changing keen eye to also boost your melee range and basically re-arranging the trees so that, as a melee class, you can get the boosts from the nice MM and Ranger souls.
    I think the first solution is the best and that apart from Ruthleness, all the other assassin abilities should only work for melee weapons, including poisons, dot crit damage, because let's face it, the boost that gives ranged classes is quite nuts compared to what melee souls can grab (since they already need to spec into these souls anyway).
    Last edited by vaxatif; 02-11-2011 at 07:29 AM.
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    Rift Disciple Mucera's Avatar
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    This had me puzzled as well.
    It is of course possible to poison arrows whereas better depth perception would not help an assassin in most cases but from a synergy point of view this seems off.

    I would not be surprised of they made poisons melee only, makes sense imho.

  3. #3
    Telaran Kato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaxatif View Post
    Solution? Either restrict all assassin abilities to melee weapons only, including poisons, or remove all the ranged only restrictions on the Ranger and MM abilities, especially stuff as killing focus, double shot, changing keen eye to also boost your melee range and basically re-arranging the trees so that, as a melee class, you can get the boosts from the nice MM and Ranger souls.
    I think the first solution is the best and that apart from Ruthleness, all the other assassin abilities should only work for melee weapons, including poisons, dot crit damage, etc.
    The last thing the game needs is more Rogues speccing MM/Ranger =P
    I think the point is, my friend, that if an assassin specced rogue gets too many benefits from a ranged DPS tree that affect everything, then there would be no reason to be meleeing. It's to force people to make a gameplay choice, not to be equally effective in all manners of combat. Assassin is a good complimentary tree, several callings have them. Souls that provide bonuses that are quite nice regardless of your roll. I know quite a lot of ranged DPS as well as healers take Warden in the cleric calling. You might say a few people are intrigued by the stealth and Passives of the assassin tree.

    I can't speak for everyone, only myself, but if your complaint is that it's unfair that ranged classes can take a melee DPS tree for utility purposes, but that it's unfair that a melee can't take ranged, my argument would simply be. If a melee takes a ranged tree, why not be ranged? If the damage is similar (probably better than assassin tbh), then why wouldn't you simply remain in safety of ranged?

    If it makes you feel any better, the cleric calling has a few of those as well. Ranged DPS trees like the inquisitor and cavalier have soul points that increase ranged crit chance, meanwhile shaman and Druid trees have melee crit chance. This is a little bit of a different situation than the one you were describing but consider this. With the abilities clerics get that convert spell power and spell crit into melee power and melee crit, all those caster stats are essentially melee stats. Yet all the melee stats are not caster stats. This is a very similar situation to the one you've described, but I don't think it would make sense to make them reversible.

    Case in point. Some souls need to have a separation. If you take MM and you're an assassin, it should be an intentional decision because they are drastically different game plays. You should be sledding that way to be a hybrid ranged/melee, not a god of both realms. Should you prefer to only play a melee rogue, you have plenty of other options for beneficial combinations that improve your capacity in melee. You don't need more just because another class can gain benefits from the assassin tree also.

    Edit: I noticed you edited your post, making mine a little less appropriate as a response. Making assassin abilities melee only would be fine as a solution, but what exactly would it accomplish? Is it bad that people are taking assassin as a support soul? It's hardly unfair when you consider that MM really only have one other ranged weapon tree for perfect synchrony. They're essentially forced to dip into a 3rd tree that won't give them much in terms of usable abilities. So they might take assassin to get stealth and poisons and a mild damage increase (it's really not that useful. Just a little bonus really). Or night blade (probably the better choice) for the builder and finisher +15%. the honest truth, however, is that for perfect synchrony, the MM actually has fewer opportunities. If you made all melee rogue Passives MELEE ONLY. What other tree would marksman have? They could go ranger/ marksman and.... Saboteur? That's it? Nothing else would give them any benefit and those are the only 3 ranged DPS souls. And sab doesn't even use a bow. The only benefit sab could provide is a snare and some more dex. Dint get me wrong, some people use this combo anyway, but it's stupid to think it's unfair that a soul so limited in synchrony options deserves fewer just because they're using your soul and you can't use theirs.
    Last edited by Kato; 02-11-2011 at 07:51 AM.
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    Plane Walker Odaman's Avatar
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    I dislike that ranged benefit from a majority of the melee souls so much without having to mix up their playstyle whatsoever, but this game draws on the ability to create your own class. So I'd suggest that marksman abilities effect all physical attacks (like the chance to do air damage halfway up the tree, this should be towards the bottom and affect melee swings). The same goes for the ranged finisher that gives auto attack haste to ranged attacks, this should also work for melee swings.

    It really only takes a few minor tweaks to give those that want to melee a majority of the time a return that is similar to that a ranged rogue gets by going into a melee soul.

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    Plane Touched Infamous22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odaman View Post
    I dislike that ranged benefit from a majority of the melee souls so much without having to mix up their playstyle whatsoever, but this game draws on the ability to create your own class. So I'd suggest that marksman abilities effect all physical attacks (like the chance to do air damage halfway up the tree, this should be towards the bottom and affect melee swings). The same goes for the ranged finisher that gives auto attack haste to ranged attacks, this should also work for melee swings.

    It really only takes a few minor tweaks to give those that want to melee a majority of the time a return that is similar to that a ranged rogue gets by going into a melee soul.
    well the issue is this, most ranged classes can go assasin and put < 4 points in and be beneficial.

    assasin 1 tier skill gives 15% crit chance, while the poison gives a great DPS boost for 0 pt ability
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    Plane Touched vaxatif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    The last thing the game needs is more Rogues sledding MM/Ranger =P
    I think the point is, my friend, that if an assassin specced rogue gets too many benefits from a ranged DPS tree that affect everything, then there would be no reason to be meleeing. It's to force people to make a gameplay choice, not to be equally effective in all manners of combat. Assassin is a good complimentary tree, several callings have them. Souls that provide bonuses that are quite nice regardless of your roll. I know quite a lot of ranged DPS as well as healers take Warden in the cleric calling. You might say a few people are intrigued by the stealth and Passives of the assassin tree.
    True, many callings have these but not to that extend I think.
    As it is now, unless you like meleeing, there is no reason whatsoever to do so since you can spec heavy into MM and grab ALL the goodies from the assassin soul.

    I mean: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...0o..x0tRqdVhdo

    or for ranger: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...o..VGsbuxzokVz

    And there is nothing forcing you to go melee at any point. It's a 100% DPS/CC gain no matter what (while Riftstalker is more of a mobility/survival gain with bit DPS here and there). You can as a range class grab ALL the stealth goodies without even a downside, why the hell play melee then? As ranged, you'll never miss, you can snare/root from a distance, can either speed run like a monkey on crack or just knockback, you can proc all the poisons you want from range and CC (with assassin abilities) if anyone come close, your crits are insanely boosted and you got insta stealth, boosted stealth, improved poison proc...)

    To me, it just screams: ok, the two main souls for rogues are Ranger and MM, the other ones are just to buff you up a bit. And since there is no obvious reason to go melee (no real dps boost, on the contrary) and there are very heavy difficulties, why would any rogue go any other soul but ranged as primary style but for personal preference (knowing they'd be less efficient I mean).
    Last edited by vaxatif; 02-11-2011 at 08:02 AM.
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    Plane Walker Drekor's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with spec'ing into marks... if someone gets out of range of you on your assassin are you just going to chase him doing nothing? Why not be able to have quick shot + hasted shot to do damage and get back into range? Or if a fight devolves into a standoff you can start using some of the bigger damage moves from MM like emp shot and deadeye. It provides a lot of utility when you can shift from melee to ranged at a moments notice.

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    Plane Touched vaxatif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drekor View Post
    Nothing wrong with spec'ing into marks... if someone gets out of range of you on your assassin are you just going to chase him doing nothing? Why not be able to have quick shot + hasted shot to do damage and get back into range? Or if a fight devolves into a standoff you can start using some of the bigger damage moves from MM like emp shot and deadeye. It provides a lot of utility when you can shift from melee to ranged at a moments notice.
    But it doesn't help any of my melee skills, that's my point. Doing that would just mean that my melee abilities suck compared to my ranged ones, because my ranged ones will be boosted by my assassin spec while my melee ones will not by my MM spec.

    If I follow your logic, why not go full ranged anyway. You're at safety, can stealth, cc and do more damage because all the bonus in assassin will boost your ranged damage.
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    Telaran Ritual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaxatif View Post
    I was checking what I could combo with for an assassin build and noticed quite rapidly that only Nightblade and Riftstalker would be of any use, apart maybe from the 5% crit in the Ranger soul.
    Ummmm BLADEDANCER! This class is awesome with Sin you missed a biggie here.

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    Telaran Roarnak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    I noticed you edited your post, making mine a little less appropriate as a response. Making assassin abilities melee only would be fine as a solution, but what exactly would it accomplish? Is it bad that people are taking assassin as a support soul? It's hardly unfair when you consider that MM really only have one other ranged weapon tree for perfect synchrony. They're essentially forced to dip into a 3rd tree that won't give them much in terms of usable abilities. So they might take assassin to get stealth and poisons and a mild damage increase (it's really not that useful. Just a little bonus really). Or night blade (probably the better choice) for the builder and finisher +15%. the honest truth, however, is that for perfect synchrony, the MM actually has fewer opportunities. If you made all melee rogue Passives MELEE ONLY. What other tree would marksman have? They could go ranger/ marksman and.... Saboteur? That's it? Nothing else would give them any benefit and those are the only 3 ranged DPS souls. And sab doesn't even use a bow. The only benefit sab could provide is a snare and some more dex. Dint get me wrong, some people use this combo anyway, but it's stupid to think it's unfair that a soul so limited in synchrony options deserves fewer just because they're using your soul and you can't use theirs.


    I strongly disagree with the section i highlighted. Taking Nightblade is nice BUT the best your going to see from it is a flat 15% increase. While the assassin tree you get 5% crit, +4% increase DPS, then another 10% DPS after a crit, +20% increase of crit damage, not to mention poisons, bleeds, and expose weakness. If played even 1/2 way right your avarage noob has the chance to surpass the 15% you will pick up from NB. How ever taking all 3 souls... now that has some potential. then again it's tough to pass up the Bladedaner as a third soul.

  11. #11
    Rift Master
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    Its all for the crit and the poison procs.

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    Why do you think a main assassin has to only be melee? If you put the ranger soul into your assassin, why can't you use quick shot/head shot if your target is running? You act as if since you want to be an assassin you can't use skills from other souls. I personally love having ranger on my bard soul so I can quick shot and head shot if the enemy is out of my pitiful 20m range.

    That is the beauty of this soul system. You AREN'T just an assassin. You are an assassin with ranged skills, use them. They aren't just a ranger either, they are a ranger with melee skills. I have a marksman build that specs deep enough into assassin to have foul play. Am I not allowed to use foul play since it is in the assassin tree and its a melee skill? Stop thinking your secondary and third soul is just for buffs, and think about the skills you could use too. You severely limit yourself if you just want buffs.

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    Plane Walker Cormyat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiz View Post
    Why do you think a main assassin has to only be melee? If you put the ranger soul into your assassin, why can't you use quick shot/head shot if your target is running? You act as if since you want to be an assassin you can't use skills from other souls. I personally love having ranger on my bard soul so I can quick shot and head shot if the enemy is out of my pitiful 20m range.

    That is the beauty of this soul system. You AREN'T just an assassin. You are an assassin with ranged skills, use them. They aren't just a ranger either, they are a ranger with melee skills. I have a marksman build that specs deep enough into assassin to have foul play. Am I not allowed to use foul play since it is in the assassin tree and its a melee skill? Stop thinking your secondary and third soul is just for buffs, and think about the skills you could use too. You severely limit yourself if you just want buffs.
    ^This^

    If anything, this game allows sins to moderate one of their biggest weaknesses in other games--the inability to do any significant damage at range. You can go sab, or MM, even the NB tree does some pretty solid ranged damage.

    One of the things that used to frustrate me in that game whose name shall not be spoken was being rooted by a Hunter or Frost Mage and if my trinket was down, I basically had to stand there and get pew-pewed for 3-5 seconds with my only attack being lolthrowingdaggers.

    An assassin in this game can do some realistic ranged damage in a pinch, enough to make snare kiting an assassin a little less of a /faceroll way of beating one.

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    Telaran Scayth's Avatar
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    I think some of you are missing the point. Which is this:

    Ok, let's take your suggestion and build a ranged/melee hybrid, so we'll be proficient at both. Let's take just Marksman and Assassin and dump all our points in those two trees. Here's the problem, the points I dump in Sin will substantially boost my ranged MM skills. But, the points I dump in MM will do absolutely zero for my melee Sin skills. It's lopsided, get it?

    Number of Assassin skills that boost ranged dps = 8 (plus poisons)

    Number of Marksman skills that effect melee dps = 0
    Last edited by Scayth; 02-11-2011 at 04:00 PM.

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    Plane Touched Nineaxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scayth View Post
    I think some of you are missing the point. Which is this:

    Ok, let's take your suggestion and build a ranged/melee hybrid, so we'll be proficient at both. Let's take just Marksman and Assassin and dump all our points in those two trees. Here's the problem, the points I dump in Sin will substantially boost my ranged MM skills. But, the points I dump in MM will do absolutely zero for my melee Sin skills. It's lopsided, get it?

    Number of Assassin skills that boost ranged dps = 8 (plus poisons)

    Number of Marksman skills that effect melee dps = 0
    Optimally you would begin with ranged combat and your higher DPS, but you'd still be viable if forced into melee combat.

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