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Thread: Yet another Saboteur thread...

  1. #1
    lgw
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    Default Yet another Saboteur thread...

    So there's plenty of discussion on Saboteurs having a too strong burst, and that folks can do littte anything against it.

    OTOH full-time Sabs claim all is fine. When trying one I found it at least one of the easier and more effective souls to run.

    So what could be done to make that burst more managable, without either hurting Sab DPS or running that 1/2 dmg on Charge, 1/2 dmg on Detonate fix many Sabs seem to dislike.

    A commonly suggested counter from Sabs is...
    1) ... to run away.
    2) ... use CC.
    3) ... dispell the Charges.
    The problem with all is: Charges are placed on the move, stay for 60s and hardly any soul has the burst removal without CD to actually keep up with the Sab, plus the fact that there's plenty of CC available to Sabs as well as Rogues in general. Except the Purifier good shields that don't fix your basic surviability issue (hah, Mages !) are hard to come by, too.

    So what about changing the Charges as follows:
    * Stay 5s or 6s on the target.
    * But the timer is refreshed every time any new Charge is placed.
    * Charges become regular ranged skills, which means they have minimum range of 3m.
    * Combo Points naturally stay on the target regardless.

    The idea is that by applying some CC themselves and then either running away or forcing the Sab into melee, an enemy can avoid a full 5 Charge (+ Booster) Detonate. It still takes skill to first recognise and then execute that move, but at least there's a chance - but that's what many folks always answer: "Play better !"
    Last edited by lgw; 02-11-2011 at 05:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    If your whole team targeted the saboteur and pressed some angry buttons he probably wouldn't be a problem

    Pretty hard to CC a sabo I would think, especially if they go Infiltrator.

    Anathema would be so nasty to try and heal through + Sab Burst
    Last edited by Whompy; 02-11-2011 at 05:59 AM.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    5 or 6s is too short, in my opinion. The often-suggested 10s for charges I think would be a good compromise--it's really way too long as it is now.

  4. #4
    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Effervescent View Post
    5 or 6s is too short, in my opinion. The often-suggested 10s for charges I think would be a good compromise--it's really way too long as it is now.
    My intention was to last them about about <typical length of a hard CC> + 2s, so I'm flexible on the actual time.
    Then the victim of the Sab can apply the CC and afterwards G T F O (huh, cussword filter ?), or he can stay and gamble - but then the Sab still has enough time to Detonate / reapply.
    Last edited by lgw; 02-11-2011 at 06:47 AM.

  5. #5
    General of Telara
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    BEST FIX T SABS EVER: Make it so that if they detonate their charges while in melee range of the target they take the damage too :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Lmaoboat View Post
    I drew a nice picture of some mountains today. It, too, looks good on paper.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    So what about changing the Charges as follows:
    * Stay 5s or 6s on the target.
    * But the timer is refreshed every time any new Charge is placed.
    * Charges become regular ranged skills, which means they have minimum range of 3m.
    * Combo Points naturally stay on the target regardless.
    The issue which everyone loves to overlook is that if the charges don't go off, you've taken 0 damage all fight. Ignoring the argument of Marksman doing better damage anyway, let's say you put your changes into effect.

    Marksman:
    Hit and Run
    Empowered Shot
    Empowered Shot
    Swift Shot
    CC for 8 seconds!
    (Assuming still alive)
    Deadeye Shot
    Empowered Shot
    Empowered Shot
    Swift Shot
    Rapidfire Shot

    Sab:
    Charge
    Charge
    Charge
    Charge
    Charge
    CC'd for 4 seconds (assuming it was a stun)
    (Assuming still alive)
    Try to throw another charge on them within 2 seconds, else start over from scratch having done 0 damage to anyone.

    Or
    CC'd for 8 seconds (Assuming it wasn't a root/stun)
    Start over from scratch having done 0 damage to anyone.

    Your other comment about no "soul has the burst removal without CD to actually keep up with the Sab" is more or less a good thing. It means that right now, no one person can keep a sab in indefinite hard lockdown at low cost to themselves.

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    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneTrixter View Post
    The issue which everyone loves to overlook is that if the charges don't go off, you've taken 0 damage all fight.
    See, after testing the Sab myself I found the suggestion to change the Charge mechanics such that they half damage when applied, half damage when detonated to be reasonable.
    But many Sabs are fighting teeth and claws against such a change, so I wanted to put out a different idea to make Sabs somewhat more counterable. Because face it, right now there's a few combos that produce extreme bursts (Sabs, Void Knights combining Empower / Discharge, ...) - and such big bursts, contrary to strong but more sustaind DPS like Marksmen* - are hardly counterable in PVP.
    My intention here is to toss around some ideas to change the mechanics such that victims have a viable counter, but that still leaves Sabs both strong in PVP as well as with a unique feel. So if you have other suggestions, feel free to put them forward.

    * That doesn't mean MM are fine as they are, but I found them to be less extreme in their burst capabilities.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    So there's plenty of discussion on Saboteurs having a too strong burst, and that folks can do littte anything against it.

    OTOH full-time Sabs claim all is fine. When trying one I found it at least one of the easier and more effective souls to run.

    So what could be done to make that burst more managable, without either hurting Sab DPS or running that 1/2 dmg on Charge, 1/2 dmg on Detonate fix many Sabs seem to dislike.

    A commonly suggested counter from Sabs is...
    1) ... to run away.
    2) ... use CC.
    3) ... dispell the Charges.
    The problem with all is: Charges are placed on the move, stay for 60s and hardly any soul has the burst removal without CD to actually keep up with the Sab, plus the fact that there's plenty of CC available to Sabs as well as Rogues in general. Except the Purifier good shields that don't fix your basic surviability issue (hah, Mages !) are hard to come by, too.

    So what about changing the Charges as follows:
    * Stay 5s or 6s on the target.
    * But the timer is refreshed every time any new Charge is placed.
    * Charges become regular ranged skills, which means they have minimum range of 3m.
    * Combo Points naturally stay on the target regardless.

    The idea is that by applying some CC themselves and then either running away or forcing the Sab into melee, an enemy can avoid a full 5 Charge (+ Booster) Detonate. It still takes skill to first recognise and then execute that move, but at least there's a chance - but that's what many folks always answer: "Play better !"

    Why do you want to change the Saboteur?

  9. #9
    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51 View Post
    Why do you want to change the Saboteur?
    See the post above yours - their burst simply is either too strong or too hard to counter. (And no "just do more damage than the Sab" is not a valid counter.)
    That doesn't mean they need an actual nerf, but the victim of the Sab needs some viable way to react that doesn't include "give up and die".
    Last edited by lgw; 02-11-2011 at 12:52 PM.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    the sab has no sustained dps and all burst dps. I would say its balanced all ready

  11. #11
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    * Saboteurís Charges are now considered Poison attacks and can be cleansed by abilities like Cauterize, Sterilize, Curative Waters, etc. if the caster is paying attention.

    Yay! 1 Healer = Saboteur's do 0 damage. At least we called the over nerf. I see this being fixed by launch.

  12. #12
    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soomple Pompler View Post
    the sab has no sustained dps and all burst dps. I would say its balanced all ready
    Nope, it isn't - in particular not for PVP, which I care most about.

    Quote Originally Posted by blahdot3h View Post
    * Saboteurís Charges are now considered Poison attacks and can be cleansed by abilities like Cauterize, Sterilize, Curative Waters, etc. if the caster is paying attention.

    Yay! 1 Healer = Saboteur's do 0 damage. At least we called the over nerf. I see this being fixed by launch.
    Not too much.
    AFAIK only two Cleric Souls (Sent, Warden) have a burst removal (2 / cast) without a CD. Now add that non-Rogue GCD is 1.5s, and only those two particular souls can slightly out-cleanse you, but hardly do anything else.
    OTOH that still creates a rather iffy situation vs one set of Souls, while the significant another set of Souls still has almost no counter to Sab Charge stacking.

    A situation I actually wanted to avoid with my initial suggestion.

  13. #13
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    We will just have to wait and see how it pans out. Sab's rely on charges as well for other forms of cc, so being able to preemptively prevent a snare or a stun from going off by cleansing changes the mechanics of the class too much. And as you mentioned before, this only helps things for one tree against sab's, it leaves the rest out of luck. I'm sure they will find a new compromise to reach what is considered balance without neutering the class too much.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahdot3h View Post
    * Saboteurís Charges are now considered Poison attacks and can be cleansed by abilities like Cauterize, Sterilize, Curative Waters, etc. if the caster is paying attention.

    Yay! 1 Healer = Saboteur's do 0 damage. At least we called the over nerf. I see this being fixed by launch.
    If you're 1 v 1 against a healer, chances are you'd die anyway.

    Sab's are going to be a force with non-healers. Not so with healers. Expect some unique things from a unique class.

  15. #15
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    I don't care either way, I don't PvP much.

    What if the Sab could take AoE damage from his own abilities?

    So when a Sab placed Time Bomb on someone (Attaches a Time Bomb onto the enemy, which explodes after 8 seconds, dealing weapon plus 82 to 85 Earth damage to the enemy and up to 10 enemies around them.)

    If that someone got the Sab into the AoE range of the Time Bomb, the Sab would take his own AoE damage.


    This would give a sort of defense against a Sab, get close. And make the Time Bomb a little more situational.

    Not sure how it would play out, but just a thought.
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