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Thread: Rift Barrier vs Rift Guard

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Ezekielplus1's Avatar
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    Default Rift Barrier vs Rift Guard

    Since they don't stack, which ends up being a better investment of points? Or would you invest in both since they may be used up by high damage scenarios well before the duration runs out?

    Rift Guard (with Imp Rift Guard):
    30% Damage Reduction of all incoming Damage for 30 sec (assuming max combo points)
    absorbs up to 100% of max HP (150% of 40% + 40% of max HP)

    Rift Barrier (with Imp Rift Barrier)
    25% Damage Reduction of all incoming Damage for 15 sec
    absorbs up to 50% of max HP

    Now looking at this at a glance it's a no brainer, Rift Guard (w/ Imp) costs 4 points vs Rift Barrier costing 6pts and is all around better statistically.
    On the other hand Rift Guard doesn't cost any combo points and can be active all the time, by rotating shadow assault, blitz, and stalk. So you could use your combo points to keep other defensive buffs active (that also generate threat), offensive buffs active (for yourself and/or the raid), or for straight out damaging abilities/threat gen.

    I don't have any experience comparing the two and have only toyed with rift stalker a bit, but I'm curious to hear what others have experienced in this department. In my limited experience using the soul I've been rushed to get my buffs up and combo points seemed like quite a commodity, but I haven't tanked much past a few rift elites. I've also read a few posts stating that during the start of a pull is the time the RS takes the most damage while getting all the buffs up, so I would reason that the Rift Barrier would be good in these situations. Anyways, thanks in advance for any info.
    Last edited by Ezekielplus1; 02-10-2011 at 01:16 PM. Reason: added 150% INCREASE vs 150% of 40%

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    I have only toyed with Riftstalker in warfronts, specifically whitefall.

    Rift Barrier and here is why:

    Say you are facing a enemy, melee or ranged.
    If you have Rift Guard invested, you are exposed for 6 seconds (6 GCD to activate Rift Guard). He'll probably be able to take out 15-25% of your HP in this time.

    If you had Rift Barrier invested, you could use your planeshifting abilities instantly, like Shadow Stalk, to appear behind the target. You now have 15 seconds of shield and exposed yourself for 0-1 seconds (because Shadow Stalk has a horrible range, like 10 meters instead of the purported 20).

    After those 15 seconds are up, you need planeshift again. If you are against a melee opponent, nothing bad happens. If against a ranged opponent, you'll have to cut down on the distance, but if you have Freedom of Movement and Hasted time enabled, you can cut down on him pretty fast. Rift Prison is also useful.

    You can keep on repeating this until the target is dead.

    What it all comes down to is how long you are exposed without the benefits of the buffs. The exposure is a lot longer with Rift Guard in the beginning.

    Now of course, if you are using Riftstalker as flag bearer in warfronts, Rift Barrier is a must since you will be running away rather than staying by to fight.
    Last edited by sinasdf; 02-10-2011 at 12:16 PM.

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    If we are talking purely pve, I would definitely consider taking both. For pve, having a barrier that absorbs 30% of all damage up to 100% of my health (not 60% - the talent *increases* the 40% by 150%, so 40 x 2.5 = 100) seems like it would be necessary for tanking raids, and you dont want to be dragging the boss all over the place when you're constantly Shifting to keep Rift Barrier up, and only using shifts when I have Rift Guard going down and cant spare the CPs to put it back up yet. For pvp, ya I'd likely ditch Rift Guard to pick up more utility pieces, like the whole line of "after Plane Shifting" talents.

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    I dont think OP is asking ab out PvP.

    For PvE Tanking, Guard is much better over all 30% vs 25% reduction as well as up to full hp rather 50% hp on barrier.
    Originally barrier was introduced in beta 5 to account for RS weakness on pull. However due to its outrageous cost it is debatable weather or not it is worth, where there are other ways around it.

    To give a few:

    1) Pop Cd on pull (50% dodge/50% damage)
    2) pull with range combo builder (ether cadience from bard or shots from ranger) and put up quick Guard. With bard for example you can have 5 combo point Guard just over 2 GDC into the fight, given time the mobs takes to get to you, most of the time it is before you get hit even once.

    I personally hope they lower the point requirement.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconax View Post
    If we are talking purely pve, I would definitely consider taking both. For pve, having a barrier that absorbs 30% of all damage up to 100% of my health (not 60% - the talent *increases* the 40% by 150%, so 40 x 2.5 = 100) seems like it would be necessary for tanking raids, and you dont want to be dragging the boss all over the place when you're constantly Shifting to keep Rift Barrier up, and only using shifts when I have Rift Guard going down and cant spare the CPs to put it back up yet. For pvp, ya I'd likely ditch Rift Guard to pick up more utility pieces, like the whole line of "after Plane Shifting" talents.
    Well three of the four abilities can planeshift you very little.

    Shadow Stalk shifts you behind the boss, so it's useful when you need to turn him around to prevent cleaving everyone else

    Shadow Warp shifts you to where you want to be shifted so you can shift to the side or behind him

    and Flashback/Mem shifts you to whereever you placed your Memory point, which could be the same spot you are currently standing.

    Shadow Shift is the only one that could make you go all over the place.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinasdf View Post
    Well three of the four abilities can planeshift you very little.

    Shadow Stalk shifts you behind the boss, so it's useful when you need to turn him around to prevent cleaving everyone else

    Shadow Warp shifts you to where you want to be shifted so you can shift to the side or behind him

    and Flashback/Mem shifts you to whereever you placed your Memory point, which could be the same spot you are currently standing.

    Shadow Shift is the only one that could make you go all over the place.

    Ok so you shadowStalk to turn the boss now all melee is behind him, so using it again is out of the question.

    Shadow warp/flashback can be used, but it becomes harder/impossible if you have to kite the boss.

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    eh id say,

    Barrier = PvP
    Gaurd = PvE

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    Rift Disciple Ezekielplus1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinasdf View Post
    I have only toyed with Riftstalker in warfronts, specifically whitefall.

    Rift Barrier and here is why:

    Say you are facing a enemy, melee or ranged.
    If you have Rift Guard invested, you are exposed for 6 seconds (6 GCD to activate Rift Guard). He'll probably be able to take out 15-25% of your HP in this time.

    If you had Rift Barrier invested, you could use your planeshifting abilities instantly, like Shadow Stalk, to appear behind the target. You now have 15 seconds of shield and exposed yourself for 0-1 seconds (because Shadow Stalk has a horrible range, like 10 meters instead of the purported 20).

    After those 15 seconds are up, you need planeshift again. If you are against a melee opponent, nothing bad happens. If against a ranged opponent, you'll have to cut down on the distance, but if you have Freedom of Movement and Hasted time enabled, you can cut down on him pretty fast. Rift Prison is also useful.

    You can keep on repeating this until the target is dead.

    What it all comes down to is how long you are exposed without the benefits of the buffs. The exposure is a lot longer with Rift Guard in the beginning.

    Now of course, if you are using Riftstalker as flag bearer in warfronts, Rift Barrier is a must since you will be running away rather than staying by to fight.
    Sounds pretty reasonable. I had PVE in mind when I asked, but this has me honestly wanting to test this out in PVP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    Ok so you shadowStalk to turn the boss now all melee is behind him, so using it again is out of the question.

    Shadow warp/flashback can be used, but it becomes harder/impossible if you have to kite the boss.
    Of course you can use it. All you have to do is move 1 meter around him so that he faces everyone else again.

    And tanks really shouldn't be kiting bosses in the first place, makes it very difficult for the other melee.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Ezekielplus1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathfairy View Post
    I dont think OP is asking ab out PvP.

    For PvE Tanking, Guard is much better over all 30% vs 25% reduction as well as up to full hp rather 50% hp on barrier.
    Originally barrier was introduced in beta 5 to account for RS weakness on pull. However due to its outrageous cost it is debatable weather or not it is worth, where there are other ways around it.

    To give a few:

    1) Pop Cd on pull (50% dodge/50% damage)
    2) pull with range combo builder (ether cadience from bard or shots from ranger) and put up quick Guard. With bard for example you can have 5 combo point Guard just over 2 GDC into the fight, given time the mobs takes to get to you, most of the time it is before you get hit even once.

    I personally hope they lower the point requirement.
    Sounds like a solid plan. The 6 point requirement is pretty serious and with there being no chance of stacking or no benefit from having both looks like Barrier will be the way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekielplus1 View Post
    Sounds pretty reasonable. I had PVE in mind when I asked, but this has me honestly wanting to test this out in PVP.
    Read my guide to Riftstalkers in Whitefall:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...warfronts-LONG

    At level 35 a Riftstalker build in Whitefall will have putrid DPS, but if you consider a level 50 and the numerous available points, I think a Riftstalker/Any other DPS soul combination will be OP.

  12. #12
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    Well first off OP... your numbers are incorrect.

    Rift guard is 30% of all damage for 100% of your max hp for 30s(imp. rift guard is a 150% INCREASE (2.5x 40 = 100)).

    Rift barrier is 25% of all damage done for 40% of your max hp for 15s.



    The way I see it the 2 are very different. Generally out of pure absorbtion Rift Guard is superior. However, it is harder to maintain and reduces you overall threat output because you are spending finishers on rift guard instead of false blade and/or guarded steel which do damage + defensive tools.

    Rift barrier also doesn't require any CP on the target to activate so can be prepped on a pull.... That being said... I'll probably be using both endgame.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Ezekielplus1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinasdf View Post
    Of course you can use it. All you have to do is move 1 meter around him so that he faces everyone else again.

    And tanks really shouldn't be kiting bosses in the first place, makes it very difficult for the other melee.
    I can see all the plane shifting abilities save the shift coming into play in a variety of ways. No matter if it's to position better, to burn a cooldown, or to generate threat it def has several applications. I can see it being a saving grace to catch a run away mob if instigate is on cooldown too. (although I don't see it happening frequently)

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    Until we know how damage stacks up against us as Tanks at max level, Guard vs Barrier is largely an academic discussion with no real conclusion just yet. A couple of things will have to be happening for you to make meaningful use out of both. Guard is obviously superior to Barrier in how much it mitigates, but requires a finisher to activate. However, given the very long durations of the other finisher buffs, generating CPs for RG shouldn't be a problem.

    To accurately determine what we would want, and if we need Rift Barrier at all, we have to know several stats: our maximum health, the incoming damage per hit, the incoming damage speed, and our own CP generation time. If we know all of these things a few categories occur:

    A) We build CPs often enough and/or the Boss hits weakly or slowly enough and/or our Health scales RG high enough that we never have RG downtime.
    B) We do all of the above favorably but we cannot guarantee 100% uptime of RG, allowing us to fill gaps with RB.
    C) Conditions are so bad that not only do we have loads of RG downtime but we are constantly trying to fill the gaps with RB and may even have downtime there as well.

    If A is true, then RB is completely useless in a PvE situation, at least based on our simple model, aside from perhaps the pull where you are setting up Guarded Steel, False Blade, etc and you aren't fully up to speed.

    If B or C are true, the value of RB goes up tremendously, and if we're living in the world of C a lot of the time, then investing even more points into Shadow Mastery for the reduced CD on Phase Shifting will have additional survivability benefits.

    I'm betting we'll live somewhere in the world of B most of the time, given how large the shields are from RG and how often we'll be able to churn out CPs. Aside from additional threat in Bladedancer, which at the moment is not a problem if playing correctly, you don't really miss out on too much by at least pushing into Rift Barrier/Improved Rift Barrier. Now if you're really keen on higher Bard skills for more self healing and such or you're just deadset on some of the more DPS/TPS centric skills in other souls, then its more of a tradeoff but when it comes to Tanking, surviving and making life easy on your Healers is always my number one priority as Threat is generally a matter of playing right and totally under my own personal control. You can't Tank if you can't hold Threat obviously but generally if you can't hold Threat, you are doing something very wrong, at least based on most other MMOs.

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    Sword of Telara Fasc's Avatar
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    Oh and also consider that with deeper Bladedancer investment, you get Dauntless Strike on top of Annihilation from the Riftstalker soul, giving you two other finishers that do damage and increase overall damage. Juggling all four finishers while maximizing Rift Guard uptime will be a very interesting (and difficult) task indeed but something well worth considering on tank'n'spank encounters or more trivial fights that don't require watching all your defensive skills like a hawk.

    With the huge modifier on Planar Strike on top of all but Rift Guard finishers generating more damage and thus Threat, and even refreshing Phantom Blow or Rift Disturbance which still deal damage, I'm not at all concerned about TPS production in the slightest.

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