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Thread: Saboteurs... people need to learn something.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
    Without burst damage and crowd control in PVP, no one would die if both sides had decent players, let alone good ones. Many other callings/souls require you to give them priority too, such as main healers.
    I agree. The problem is the way in which the damage is delivered.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
    A) Nothing in the game, including a Saboteur, one-shots people.

    B) A Pyromancer can come very close to the same spike damage as a Saboteur's crit by using Cinderburst and landing a crit + another spell like their delayed nuke (the Cinderburst, a normally 6s nuke, goes to 4.8s with spec, and can become instant off of the Warlock's Opportunity ability or one of the Pyromancer's armor spells that has a chance to make Cinderburst instant). Additionally, they have a nice ability called Wildfire which gives a large chance to make your next three Flame Bolts, an instant nuke with 8s cooldown, have no cooldown, off of their main fireball-type attack.

    Thus, they can pop off a fireball or two to get the proc, cast their Cinderburst (if Pyromancer's Armor hasn't procced to make it instant), then hit some successive insta-casts right as the Cinderburst lands. As the Cinderburst lands and the enemy is well below 30% hp, they can then use Inferno for a large instant burst as well. Voila, nice spike damage. EDIT: You can also add some of the Elementalist's critical damage boost passive (up to 50%) to aid your crits, which a Saboteur cannot.
    Forgive me if I am wrong.

    But all I get from this is a Pyro needs to talent a whole lot different pts just to be on par with a Sab 3pt skill ?

  3. #63
    Plane Walker The Grixxitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
    Other souls get backloaded/burst damage as well. I did not ever say there is no difference between them, I said that you have to adapt your tactics when fighting someone who relies on that way of damage delivery to counter. Just as you adjust your tactics when fighting a healer.
    Dude, running and hiding are not viable tactics to win a PvP battle


    Also, regarding the whole Warhammer sorc thing, in all honesty, you probably shouldn't bring up the most OP class pairing in a game that was known for having very poor class balance as some sort of justification for why your current OP class shouldn't be nerfed.

    Just saying

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by correllis View Post
    Forgive me if I am wrong.

    But all I get from this is a Pyro needs to talent a whole lot different pts just to be on par with a Sab 3pt skill ?
    A Saboteur with three points in the tree will do FAR less damage than a Saboteur specced well into it . The specced Saboteurs are what are causing the complaints.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grixxitt View Post
    Dude, running and hiding are not viable tactics to win a PvP battle


    Also, regarding the whole Warhammer sorc thing, in all honesty, you probably shouldn't bring up the most OP class pairing in a game that was known for having very poor class balance as some sort of justification for why your current OP class shouldn't be nerfed.

    Just saying
    I'm not saying to run and hide, I'm saying to use the tools the game provides, to defeat an enemy. As far as the Warhammer Sorc thing, it's a comparison of a similar practical effect, except the Saboteurs cannot kill people in 1 effective burst.
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  6. #66
    Plane Walker Cormyat's Avatar
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    The core problem with sabs is that when they crit a 5-charge det, it's like if my MM critted all three of my combo-point attacks and my finisher. ( 2 CP attack --> 2 CP attack --> 1 CP attack ---> FINISHER or five 1 CP attacks and a finisher)

    If a MM was critting 4 attacks in a row consistently like that most people would agree that's OP. But you don't crit 4 attacks in a row. You crit maybe 1 or 2.

    That's why the crit chance on Sab charges should be calculated for each charge, rather than for the whole finishing move at once.
    Last edited by Cormyat; 02-09-2011 at 10:02 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormyat View Post
    The core problem with sabs is that when they crit a 5-charge det, it's like if my MM critted all three of my combo-point attacks and my finisher. ( 2 CP attack --> 2 CP attack --> 1 CP attack ---> FINISHER or five 1 CP attacks and a finisher)

    If a MM was critting 4 attacks in a row consistently like that most people would agree that's OP. But you don't crit 4 attacks in a row. You crit maybe 1 or 2.

    That's why the crit chance on Sab charges should be calculated for each charge, rather than for the whole finishing move at once.
    Or.. they can not crit and all 5 charges will not crit as well?

  8. #68
    Telaran Askalskade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubulu View Post
    You don't under what margin of error means? "eventually?" apparently you do. Burst damage should be in game, but to what extent is the issue here.
    There burst happens predictably every 6 seconds, Assuming a cast time of 2 seconds for your cc thats a margin of error of 4 seconds and the sab can't do much to stop incoming CC without destroying all of there setup.

    Just about every other rogue soul except Riftstalker or Bard main can put out equivilent damage over 6 seconds that requires CC on the rogue or death, while they are putting out some form of CC that makes it harder to CC them. Margin of error 4 seconds or less depending on there exact setup.

    And this is without the fact that unless your absolutely terribly geared most sabs only take you to 30% max now that double damage is gone.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormyat View Post
    The core problem with sabs is that when they crit a 5-charge det, it's like if my MM critted all three of my combo-point attacks and my finisher. ( 2 CP attack --> 2 CP attack --> 1 CP attack ---> FINISHER or five 1 CP attacks and a finisher)

    If a MM was critting 4 attacks in a row consistently like that most people would agree that's OP. But you don't crit 4 attacks in a row. You crit maybe 1 or 2.

    That's why the crit chance on Sab charges should be calculated for each charge, rather than for the whole finishing move at once.
    MM is capable of doing 5 crits in a row with bull's eye and strafe. The result is about 2k-2.5k damage at around level 35 over 5 ticks.. It also leaves you with 5 combo points to use a finisher, 1k-1.5k deadeye anyone?
    Last edited by airflow; 02-09-2011 at 10:05 PM.

  10. #70
    Plane Walker Cormyat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by correllis View Post
    Or.. they can not crit and all 5 charges will not crit as well?
    Sure, meaning my solution actually levels out your build without having the peaks and valleys and without putting healers in an untenable situation where they have to keep everyone in the party above 80% health or risk people dying to a single burst.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormyat View Post
    Sure, meaning my solution actually levels out your build without having the peaks and valleys and without putting healers in an untenable situation where they have to keep everyone in the party above 80% health or risk people dying to a single burst.
    Ever tried gambling? More risk = more rewards.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by correllis View Post
    Ever tried gambling? More risk = more rewards.
    Except that ruins PVP.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cormyat View Post
    Sure, meaning my solution actually levels out your build without having the peaks and valleys and without putting healers in an untenable situation where they have to keep everyone in the party above 80% health or risk people dying to a single burst.
    Or they can just keep whoever the sabo is putting stacks on topped off. It show's a debuff.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooks View Post
    Except that ruins PVP.
    Except that is just life. You cant take risk out of life.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by correllis View Post
    Except that is just life. You cant take risk out of life.
    We're talking about class balance in a video game. Are you confused?

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