Saboteurs... people need to learn something.

[bubulu]

Again, just because a class takes different methods to handle does not mean it is imbalanced, let alone overpowered . I posted this thread because they are a hot topic at this time, due to their high visibility (many people are trying them as they are "FOTM" for beta 6, and with their burst damage it gives a much larger "OMG" factor when attacked by them than just being whittled quickly over 6-8 seconds by anyone else).

Every class, no matter how powerful they are, can be countered by better player skills, better group coordination, unless the developers are insanely stupid. But that doesn't really tell much about that individual class.

[GoldenTiger]

Those BM/Sorc screamed that everyone else need to learn to play, use better skills, more group coordination to counter them. People chose to leave WAR b/c BM and Sor carpet bomb groups.

I played magus extensively from start and it remained a useless mage class except for pulling. Glad I am not playing WAR.

BW/Sorc were the most powerful classes, yes, but not overpowered consistently. People left WAR due to the bugs, unfinished content, lack of any real endgame for the first year, slow pace of development to fix issues (including real balance issues), getting stuck on the world every two seconds, lack of much PVE content for downtime/slow RVR periods, and many other factors. By the way, I played an Engineer, which was even more gimped than the Magus after Magus was given the Throwing Arm equivalent (Daemonic Reach). I still did pretty well and was known by most of the server that played at the time.

[Zooks]

I've said this multiple times, but I will say it again. Sabs are a broken PVP class. They don't need nerfed. They need fixed. Relying on nothing but backloaded burst is a terrible mechanic in PVP. It has NEVER worked, and it never will. A Sab is completely impotent for almost 5 GCD's, but if they manage to get to GCD 6 they can do massive amounts of damage. It's either terrible because people pay attention,know how to CC, and have situational awareness, or it's OP because people are bad. They need to have a portion of that burst spread throughout those 6 GCD's. I'm not saying to completely remove their burst or even reduce their damage, but the way in which that damage is delivered needs to be changed.

[Lordsteel]

Again, just because a class takes different methods to handle does not mean it is imbalanced, let alone overpowered . I posted this thread because they are a hot topic at this time, due to their high visibility (many people are trying them as they are "FOTM" for beta 6, and with their burst damage it gives a much larger "OMG" factor when attacked by them than just being whittled quickly over 6-8 seconds by anyone else).

Ok been reading and trying to understand your logic, I wanted you to say something that proved why people are talking about It wrong, but for the most part you haven't yet. Just saying because they have big burst damage or a OMG factor makes them less Op, or trying to say that Is the only reason they are more noticable doesn't make your point. So far I am leaning with the storm building against them, I will need to do my own research though.

[Gaku]

Gotta love people who seriously suggest absolute moronic things.

Is he serious? LOL!

He says he knows they are OP, and that people just need to learn to CC until the can round up a group to counter, classic.

[Mooj]

Those BM/Sorc screamed that everyone else need to learn to play, use better skills, more group coordination to counter them. People chose to leave WAR b/c BM and Sor carpet bomb groups.

I played magus extensively from start and it remained a useless mage class except for pulling. Glad I am not playing WAR.

Don't want to get off topic, but a sorc that was alone was free renown as some might say, atleast imo. (I played a Mara/Blorc)

[matt198992]

Or that since it takes some skill to counter, many people are incapable so they'd rather whine to get everyone but themselves nerfed.

this. they arent op just because you dont pay attention and play your class well.

they are also not op because you suck...

[GoldenTiger]

Gotta love people who seriously suggest absolute moronic things.

Is he serious? LOL!

He says he knows they are OP, and that people just need to learn to CC until the can round up a group to counter, classic.

I didn't say they are overpowered. I said they have high burst damage. I then suggested many methods of countering them with reasonable gameplay.

Don't want to get off topic, but a sorc that was alone was free renown as some might say, atleast imo. (I played a Mara/Blorc)

Absolutely. Just as a Saboteur is in this game, if you are any good .

[bubulu]

Gotta love people who seriously suggest absolute moronic things.

Is he serious? LOL!

He says he knows they are OP, and that people just need to learn to CC until the can round up a group to counter, classic.

Exactly, I wonder whey developers didn't give a pyro, a cloth wearing class, a spell that can one shot people but require 6-second to cast.. Per his logic, that should be in game since it would be easier to just CC/kill the pyro.

[bubulu]

Don't want to get off topic, but a sorc that was alone was free renown as some might say, atleast imo. (I played a Mara/Blorc)

MM, sorcerer/BM have this backlash mechanics b/c WAR was designed around this concept that they would have some healers. This weakness is too easily overcome in group.

In solo, every class with a little bit heal or pots can just let sorcerer/bm to kill themselves. That doesn't stop them from being too powerful in overall game play in WAR.

Are you suggesting that sab should have some backlash mechanics built in their bomb, like bombs will hit themselves too?

[GoldenTiger]

Ok been reading and trying to understand your logic, I wanted you to say something that proved why people are talking about It wrong, but for the most part you haven't yet. Just saying because they have big burst damage or a OMG factor makes them less Op, or trying to say that Is the only reason they are more noticable doesn't make your point. So far I am leaning with the storm building against them, I will need to do my own research though.

Burst damage does not alone mean you are overpowered. It makes you appear moreso as you have a larger spike of damage, but much less sustained or over-time damage. A Saboteur, as mentioned above, is doing very light damage or utility such as a snare ground-target pool, while building up (both things take away energy and global cooldowns you could use to build your charge stack, of course as well).

There is plenty of time to counter them, just as you can counter anyone else building up their attacks on you for 7-8+ seconds. A full charge stack alone has gotten me zero kills when I attempted to do so in warfronts, and I was never killed by a full stack myself either. You need to soften the target up first some, then stop them from getting out of range, helped, healed, or anything else that messes your attempts up, then blow the stack.

If a Saboteur has had time to soften you up and then detonate a full stack of charges, yes, you will be in trouble (and if someone else assisted him and softened you up... dead, just like any other two people attacking you with focused fire). Saboteurs give up the majority of their sustained damage, even when speccing another as a subclass, to do their burst, and as someone else mentioned above end up being pretty easy to knock off if you pay attention.

[Mooj]

*Interupt* OH SHI-
Meant to quote someone, too lazy to re-re edit.

[The Grixxitt]

Exactly, I wonder whey developers didn't give a pyro, a cloth wearing class, a spell that can one shot people but require 6-second to cast.. Per his logic, that should be in game since it would be easier to just CC/kill the pyro.

Nah, according to his logic there is no difference in normal vs. backloaded DPS. I mean COME ON MAN, like your healers were supposed to be healing you and stuff BEFORE the damage was done to your character, don't you get it?!?!?!

[Mooj]

Just sayin', I have been just doing WF's to level up. Have yet to be "one shot" by anything; including sabo's.

[GoldenTiger]

Exactly, I wonder whey developers didn't give a pyro, a cloth wearing class, a spell that can one shot people but require 6-second to cast.. Per his logic, that should be in game since it would be easier to just CC/kill the pyro.

A) Nothing in the game, including a Saboteur, one-shots people.

B) A Pyromancer can come very close to the same spike damage as a Saboteur's crit by using Cinderburst and landing a crit + another spell like their delayed nuke (the Cinderburst, a normally 6s nuke, goes to 4.8s with spec, and can become instant off of the Warlock's Opportunity ability or one of the Pyromancer's armor spells that has a chance to make Cinderburst instant). Additionally, they have a nice ability called Wildfire which gives a large chance to make your next three Flame Bolts, an instant nuke with 8s cooldown, have no cooldown, off of their main fireball-type attack.

Thus, they can pop off a fireball or two to get the proc, cast their Cinderburst (if Pyromancer's Armor hasn't procced to make it instant), then hit some successive insta-casts right as the Cinderburst lands. As the Cinderburst lands and the enemy is well below 30% hp, they can then use Inferno for a large instant burst as well. Voila, nice spike damage. EDIT: You can also add some of the Elementalist's critical damage boost passive (up to 50%) to aid your crits, which a Saboteur cannot.