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Thread: Bard Changes

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer Maltie's Avatar
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    Default Bard Changes

    So motif is getting some changes, it now has a max stack of 3 and the total % increase at max stacks is reduced to 60% (down from 100)

    Bard Changes-bard-changes.jpg

    Pts is left, live is right ~ Exactly the same stats/spec for both

    This is with no fragments (so they don't get scrambled on pts) no buffs, only using Motif on one person.


    Eternal is still bugged on pts though


    Guess it's time to update my pvp bard heal spec...

    Bard Changes-bard-heal.jpg

    Sad day indeed...
    Last edited by Maltie; 06-16-2017 at 01:46 AM.
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  2. #2
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    It won't really affect hybrids they still have incredible healing potential in overhealing. I would say you kind of got by lucky and it won't be too much of a nerf unless you 61 bard. At least you are not seeing rogue specs get annihilated left and right for months straight... just because
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-16-2017 at 03:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    It won't really affect hybrids they still have incredible healing potential in overhealing. I would say you kind of got by lucky and it won't be too much of a nerf unless you 61 bard. At least you are not seeing rogue specs get annihilated left and right for months straight... just because
    Healing potential doesn't matter though because Trion won't create anything that actually requires you to look at potential healing.

    Overall, support needs some help. This whole type A vs type B would work, if there were scenarios where type Bs were actually needed. Motif of Regeneration doesn't benefit bard at all. It's only use was bardphys and tactbard. You'd bring a bard simply because you couldn't get an archon or bm. You'd bring an oracle because you couldn't find an archon, bm, or bard or if you were cheesing mechanics for old raid achievements.

    There isn't currently (and I doubt there will be) any fight where a raid goes "we're taking too much damage, let's drop the archon for a bard". People just use whatever is available because the content doesn't require anything specific. So it's great that you aren't pigeonholed into bringing a mage vs a rogue for support, but at the same time, what's the point of having a Type B support if Type A is preferred 100% of the time? And it's going to get more complex when Mystic comes into play.

    I will say that the positive part of having only 3 stacks is that if your stacks fall off during burst damage, you only waste 3 gcds of building stacks instead of 5.
    Last edited by Artewig; 06-16-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    snip.
    Just because 61 Bard is not popular in raids and probably never will be. I suppose this change is to eliminate the viability for Bardphys in PvE entirely and nerfing Bardphys in PvP. (Right now, Bardphys PvP is still stupidly strong, capable of some raid healing and OP 50k crits ST heal, you can honestly top the charts even if there are top tier frostkeepers in the WF.)

    In the most recent livestream, Keyens only mentioned "Only Bard heals specifically needed to be nerfed" but didn't really elaborate on what circumstance it was OP or which exact hybrid was OP. The only reason I can think of, is that this is related to PvP (once again), or simply to make Bard on par with other Type B supports, or they couldn't find a resolution to Motif of regeneration stacking up 6 times (But this change didn't come with a compensation like Nighblade did).

    Though this is only a small nerf to Tactbard in PvE, it makes Virtuoso and Coda of Restoration spams much less effective than normal rotation.
    Last edited by huangchingho; 06-16-2017 at 10:42 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    Healing potential doesn't matter though because Trion won't create anything that actually requires you to look at potential healing.

    Overall, support needs some help. This whole type A vs type B would work, if there were scenarios where type Bs were actually needed. Motif of Regeneration doesn't benefit bard at all. It's only use was bardphys and tactbard. You'd bring a bard simply because you couldn't get an archon or bm. You'd bring an oracle because you couldn't find an archon, bm, or bard or if you were cheesing mechanics for old raid achievements.

    There isn't currently (and I doubt there will be) any fight where a raid goes "we're taking too much damage, let's drop the archon for a bard". People just use whatever is available because the content doesn't require anything specific. So it's great that you aren't pigeonholed into bringing a mage vs a rogue for support, but at the same time, what's the point of having a Type B support if Type A is preferred 100% of the time? And it's going to get more complex when Mystic comes into play.

    I will say that the positive part of having only 3 stacks is that if your stacks fall off during burst damage, you only waste 3 gcds of building stacks instead of 5.
    Depending on fight you would actually bring both A and B supports.. one being a hybrid of B and the other a full chon or BM or vice versa. It actually still exists. They didn't make supports replaceable like you think between A and B. Some people are confused about that. Still top raiders use both when dps checks or healing checks are a problem. You will notice it with Youtube videos. In the case of the new raid you don't really need more than 1 support if any at all up until the last boss but if its going to make life easier for everyone may as well bring them.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-17-2017 at 01:27 AM.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    I've mentioned it elsewhere but Bard has been capable of being hybridized as a supplemental healer long before 4.0, it just wasn't worth the raid slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    If anyone should be offended by any combination of Bard/Phys/Tact it is healers, as that raid slot isn't being taken from a dps, it's being taken them.

    Essentially what happened with the removal of Power Core/Wild Growth and the change to raid size/cool downs, you are dropping the Bard for a dps, and placing that Bard hybrid in the slot vacated by a Phys/tact or Chloro.
    With the change to LF/Ootp/DtF/Enrage the Archon will be capable of maintaining full uptime of that cool down all by themselves, making OotP worthless to the raid. Everything you need from a Bard can then be obtained with 36 points (Motif of Bravery 0pt, Fanfare of Vigor 4pts, Motif of Regeneration 8pts, Motif of Tenacity 24pts, Fanfare of Power 28pts, Resonance 30pts, Coda of Distress 36pts). At that point you are free to grab whatever you want from the Tactician and/or Physician trees. Everything in the top half of those souls is very underwhelming as well.

    All you lose from Physician past 40 points is the aoe-heal toggle (Alternative Treatment), and some single target cool downs (Massive Therapy, Intensive Care, and Life Insurance). 40+ point Tactician is even less valuable only losing an engine you don't use anyway (Empyrean Engine), an energy management toggle (Energy Alteration), and the two mitigation cool downs (Fortification Core and Ablative Coil).

    As long as Archon is in an optimal raid comp, there are only two options for bringing a bard: a healing hybrid to replace a healer, or not at all. Orchestra is worthless and the personal dps difference between a 300k 61 point Bard or a 1.1m+ Assassin/Nightblade is greater than what the Bard buffs do for the rest of the raid.

    In the current state when there is a variation of a Bard/Phys/Tac in your group you aren't bringing a support that is also healing, you are bringing a healer that is also supporting.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    In the current state when there is a variation of a Bard/Phys/Tac in your group you aren't bringing a support that is also healing, you are bringing a healer that is also supporting.
    Not getting as much diversity was probably one of the many reasons why Bard heals has been getting consecutive nerfs and still ongoing. Surely Bard heals was never OP or in any way imbalanced in PvE, it has became a required spot in raids because of DPS optimization.

    What about healer mains that do not main Rogue? They are forced to play other roles since all bosses in IRotP can be solo healed by any calling's most competitive raid healing build (with current end game stats).
    - 1st Boss with no ease. (It's even better to bring more DPSers if dps checks is an issue)
    - 2nd Boss if raid DPS is high enough to kill the boss around 3 minute raid timer (when boss has <4 stacks).
    - 3rd Boss if cleanses and mechanics are perfectly executed.
    - 4th Boss if 4 or more adds die during Phase 2.

    In eHPS for PvE raid healing perspective, Warden > Chloromancer > Liberator > Rogue heals.
    Are popular builds even considered OP and imbalanced?
    If so, it's unfair to all rogue builds with such population.
    Lack of official testing?
    Looks like a "Ranger nerf" to me back when 4.0 launched. And "Sabman nerf" since 4.1.
    Last edited by huangchingho; 06-17-2017 at 12:35 PM.

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