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Thread: Rogue in 4.1, your thoughts?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Rogue in 4.1, your thoughts?

    With 4.1 on the imminent horizon, I thought I'd ask a similar question for each class to centralize discussion.

    For Rogue:

    Where do we go from here with some of the better soul specs being heavily modified?

    What soul spec is the new goto (and next to be beat with the nerfbat)?

    Which soul specs are most likely dead?

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Where do we go from here with some of the better soul specs being heavily modified?
    Learn new specs and rotations: Assassin, Nightblade, Marksman rotations changed a lot. Tactician got new healing utilities, AoE cleanse and Battle Resurrection. Tactbard will likely be the meta-raid-healer, optimal on immobile or encounters that does not require lots of movement (since Curative Blast and Curative Core has range limitations).

    What soul spec is the new goto (and next to be beat with the nerfbat)?
    PvE perspective:

    -Bladedancer ST version: Top tier, if not very close to Top Single Target Melee DPS with Hundred blades and Dancing steels for disconnect. Use this if the raid is lacking Dervish or Assassin for the 5% critical hit debuff.

    -Bladedancer AoE version: Cleave spec, use on 2-4-target encounters or clearing dungeon adds.

    -Shadeborn (61SB/15BD/0Ranger) (the EZ mode version): Top tier, although it got like a ~5% total DPS nerf, most likely still top ST/ Dual Target melee DPS capable of minimal disconnect. Slightly above BD ST if played correctly.

    -Assassin (61Sin/11Ranger/4NB): Top Tier, slightly behind BD ST, excellent burst, ST BD is always better for sustain fights & if you need poison raid debuff and an interrupt. Although there are other potential Assassin hybrids.

    -Marksman (61MM/11Ranger/4NB): Highest Ranged ST DPS spec for Rogue, but ~26% lower overall DPS than melee souls, extremely weak, not recommended unless ranged/purge-required encounters.

    -Saboteur (61Sab/8NB/7Ranger): 8-Target AoE spec, for clearing trash. ~40% lower than current live Bladedancer, but still useful when clearing mobs.

    -Riftstalker (61RS/8Tact/7Ranger)/(61RS/8Ranger/7Bard): Raid Tank spec.
    -Tactstalker (48RS/28Tact/0Phys): No-healer-expert-tank-spec.
    -Rift-sin (45RS/31Sin/0MM or BD) Aggro-losing-skipping-adds-expert-tank-spec.

    -Bard (61Bard/15SB/0Ranger) for Interrupt and TOP 61bard ST DPS
    (61Bard/15Ranger/0Sin) for best overall Bard spec (Top tier 61 bard ST dps and AoE dps)
    (40Bard/36Tact/0Ranger) for Tactbard, bard raid heals.
    (40Bard/36Phys/0Ranger) for Bardphys, bard raid heals.
    (48Bard/21SB/7Ranger) for Shadebard, Top Battlebard DPS spec with fervor, about 70k more DPS than 61 Bard, great AoE DPS, close-to-none HPS)

    -61 Physician: (61Phys/11Ranger/4RS or SB or NB): Rogue Tank heals.
    Phystact (45Phys/31Tact/0Ranger): Raid shields/heals.
    Phloromancer (38Phys/38Tact/0Ranger) Raid heals via dealing DPS. (might be weaker than live)

    Which soul specs are most likely dead?
    Certainly dead/ unviable specs:

    -Sabman (One button)

    -Tactman (Previously AoE spec), it's clear that DEVs want to make Tactician the new Raid Healing soul, not AoE DPS soul.

    Weak/Out-of-meta specs:

    -Full Tact or many Tactician Hybrids are gimped after the extreme nerfs, I recommend sticking with the meta, if you need shields, go Phys-tact, otherwise, go DPS-healers, for instance, tactbard/bardphys, maybe Phloromancer if there's a bard already in raid

    -Nightblade: Ranger-Tier Melee soul with passive cleave up to 5 Targets. (Lower DPS than live Nightblade)

    -Ranger: Weak leveling soul with a pet companion. (20% lower than MM)

    -Saboteur is still extremely weak, other AoE souls from other callings do 40-50% higher sustained AoE DPS, WTB balance.

    -BD AoE version: it's weak and not meant for clearing 5+ target trash.
    Last edited by huangchingho; 02-25-2017 at 11:24 AM.

  3. #3
    Telaran Metsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    Weak/Out-of-meta specs:

    -Nightblade: Ranger-Tier Melee soul with passive cleave up to 5 Targets. (Lower DPS than live Nightblade)
    Well, that's a shame. I was looking forward to the chance that Nightblade might have a viable place after 4.1 as it's always been one of my favorite Rogue specs for PvP and PvE fights where it could shine.
    Oh well, 4.1 is not live yet so maybe there is some hope.
    Last edited by Metsa; 03-02-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metsa View Post
    Well, that's a shame. I was looking forward to the chance that Nightblade might have a viable place after 4.1 as it's always been one of my favorite Rogue specs for PvP and PvE fights where it could shine.
    Oh well, 4.1 is not live yet so maybe there is some hope.
    The last round of NB fix that was suppose to buff nightblade and give it a well needed QoL change on the emptiness stack timer which Keyens did.
    HOWEVER, while he did the said changes he also removed the 15s finisher spam which basically made the emptiness stack time completely meaningless and made NB a lot weaker than it is on live which is already not viable.

    So the buffs and QoL changes Keyens done to Nightblade actually caused the spec to lose about 50k dps compare to live which made it about on par as Ranger... (which is very bad). I am pretty sure 61 nightblade is the weakest melee soul currently in game on pts across all callings doing about 250k single target which is about half the dps of other classes' top specs.

    Oh well. Let's just hope Keyens fix NB again since we got another month of waiting ahead of us before the balance pass gets pushed live.

    Edit:
    All the buffs Keyens did to NB on PTS unfortunately failed to make up the dps loss that came from the 21s finisher spam.

    The 80% damage bonus to legendary flame blitz is decent however blitz is still too weak during the sub-30% execute phase compare to blazing strike. Flame blitz should be part of nightstalker talent OR flame blitz's 80% damage bonus when fully buffed should be raised to cover the difference.

    Change Ebon Fury so it gives a buff like Threads of Death does that allow a from stealth attack so we can use Dark Malady more than once per fight as Ebon Fury currently serves no purpose as a cd.

    Increase Dark Malady duration to at least 15s to cover nightblades insane long ramp up time before burn since dark malady cannot be used after you have initiated your very first attack.

    and so on...
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 03-02-2017 at 10:38 AM.

  5. #5
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    61sin 4bd 11ranger in lvl70 dummy it's about 440k dps..
    61bd 15ranger 0tact in same dummy it's about 400k dps
    61mm 10ranger 5nb in same dummy 300k dps
    Assdancer is about 50k down from full sin.
    I try 61NB 15ranger 0tact in golem foundry, it's about 320_340k ST and 980k AOE (5dummys).

    4th boss TD, naffrem full sin with bard boosts
    https://youtu.be/Y6aOon5OACY

    3rd boss TD, naffrem 61nb 15ranger 0tact with bard boosts
    https://youtu.be/PgMeqv1iKGo

    I'll screenshot the meter tmr about all specs I can play!
    Last edited by Nafrem; 03-03-2017 at 11:03 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default BD = Bladedancer ?

    I'm a bit confused by your verdict on BD AoE.

    BD is a great, small-group AoE spec. And, indeed you list it near the top:

    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    -Bladedancer AoE version: Cleave spec, use on 2-4-target encounters or clearing dungeon adds.
    But, then you list it under 'Weak' specs:

    Weak/Out-of-meta specs:
    -BD AoE version: it's weak and not meant for clearing 5+ target trash.
    Please shed some light (clarify).

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nafrem View Post
    61sin 4bd 11ranger in lvl70 dummy it's about 440k dps..
    61bd 15ranger 0tact in same dummy it's about 400k dps
    61mm 10ranger 5nb in same dummy 300k dps
    Assdancer is about 50k down from full sin.
    I try 61NB 15ranger 0tact in golem foundry, it's about 320_340k ST and 980k AOE (5dummys).

    4th boss TD, naffrem full sin with bard boosts
    https://youtu.be/Y6aOon5OACY

    3rd boss TD, naffrem 61nb 15ranger 0tact with bard boosts
    https://youtu.be/PgMeqv1iKGo

    I'll screenshot the meter tmr about all specs I can play!
    Your Marksman parse is a bit low, looking at other specs, your Marksman parse should be 330-350k.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agdang View Post
    I'm a bit confused by your verdict on BD AoE.

    BD is a great, small-group AoE spec. And, indeed you list it near the top:

    But, then you list it under 'Weak' specs:

    Please shed some light (clarify).
    Bladedancer's AoE is is essentially halved. Hundred Blades and Dancing Steels only hit a maximum of 4 targets. (Down from 8).

    The post I previously made is meant to say, if the trash pack has more than 4-targets, you still do the same DPS, which is half of what you can do on live if there were to be 8 targets (adds).
    Last edited by huangchingho; 03-03-2017 at 01:32 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nafrem View Post
    61sin 4bd 11ranger in lvl70 dummy it's about 440k dps..
    61bd 15ranger 0tact in same dummy it's about 400k dps
    61mm 10ranger 5nb in same dummy 300k dps
    Assdancer is about 50k down from full sin.
    I try 61NB 15ranger 0tact in golem foundry, it's about 320_340k ST and 980k AOE (5dummys).

    4th boss TD, naffrem full sin with bard boosts
    https://youtu.be/Y6aOon5OACY

    3rd boss TD, naffrem 61nb 15ranger 0tact with bard boosts
    https://youtu.be/PgMeqv1iKGo

    I'll screenshot the meter tmr about all specs I can play!
    On PTS the level 70 dummy takes less damage than the level 72 boss dummy. So if you tested on that then rogue is going to be massively OP since lots of people are testing on the level 72 Boss Dummy and even pulling less in similar souls than what you are pulling on the debuffed dummy. LMAO. I bet if you parse on the level 72 boss dummy outside of Alittu you will be breaking or near 500K where other classes can barely hit 380K on it. That is a massively huge oversight from the developers to be honest.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-05-2017 at 04:55 AM.

  9. #9
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    I haven't try yet but how did 30 second cooldown on main Tact healing torrent affected 61 tact overall ? Is it worthless to play beside Phystact, and is TactBard good yet ?
    Lakiarch@Deepwood

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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laki Arch View Post
    I haven't try yet but how did 30 second cooldown on main Tact healing torrent affected 61 tact overall ? Is it worthless to play beside Phystact, and is TactBard good yet ?
    You can still do decent healing as tact. But I don't play anything besides Bardphys anymore. There's nothing that you can't solo heal in bardphys, plus you provide debuffs and decent damage.
    R.I.P.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laki Arch View Post
    I haven't try yet but how did 30 second cooldown on main Tact healing torrent affected 61 tact overall ? Is it worthless to play beside Phystact, and is TactBard good yet ?
    umm, i believe the ONLY raid healing spec that is viable anymore is Tactbard, on par with other raid healing specs like warden and chloro (but virtually no single target healing) , still can solo heal TD with experienced members and a good raid composition (MoM trinket, and COA raid shield off-hand weapon procs make soloing healing possible)

  12. #12
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    umm, i believe the ONLY raid healing spec that is viable anymore is Tactbard, on par with other raid healing specs like warden and chloro (but virtually no single target healing) , still can solo heal TD with experienced members and a good raid composition (MoM trinket, and COA raid shield off-hand weapon procs make soloing healing possible)
    Never played Tactbard but I have no problems solo healing TD in Bardphys. Sometimes I use my CoA weapon, but I definitely don't need it. The only mechanics that you actually have to pay attention to are Beligosh dropping (throw an Urgent Care on the tank and go back to zoning out) and the spider boss tank healing (if they get hit below 50%, toss an Urgent Care on them and you're good). Everything else can be healed just with a normal rotation.
    Last edited by Artewig; 04-01-2017 at 01:18 PM.
    R.I.P.

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    yea but tactbard actually does a lot better than bardphys in terms of AoE healing, although bardphys can do decent ST heals, there is no way bardphys can heal as much as other raid healers from other callings. If the OP asks about a rogue raid healing spec, then yes, Tactbard is the only spec around that does decent HPS, there is no rogue hybrids that can do more than tactbard hence I'd recommend trying tactbard as a raid healer/support.
    Recommending full tactician and bardphys might not be a good idea, there are literally people coming to me saying, so bardphys is doing only 150k THPS, and that they can't heal anything but wiping the raid over and over.
    Last edited by huangchingho; 04-01-2017 at 01:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    yea but tactbard actually does a lot better than bardphys in terms of AoE healing, although bardphys can do decent ST heals, there is no way bardphys can heal as much as other raid healers from other callings. If the OP asks about a rogue raid healing spec, then yes, Tactbard is the only spec around that does decent HPS, there is no rogue hybrids that can do more than tactbard hence I'd recommend trying tactbard as a raid healer/support.
    Recommending full tactician and bardphys might not be a good idea, there are literally people coming to me saying, so bardphys is doing only 150k THPS, and that they can't heal anything but wiping the raid over and over.
    There isn't any content that requires competitive raid healing though so recommending Bardphys or full tact and having people wipe their raids isn't an issue with the spec itself, it's with the people playing the spec. When Void is up, I've hit as high as 310k hps and my overhealing is typically above 200k. Just because players don't take the 2 minutes to learn the spec doesn't mean the spec isn't viable.
    R.I.P.

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    some questions, since not all is clear to me, and it's raid time with the coming of TD and intrepid ROTP behind the corner:

    ST dps:
    which build is top ST dps now?
    which build is top ST dps now EZ MODE? (that's to say, 61SB EZ MODE still competitive?)

    AoE dps:
    which build for clearing trashes? new rangerman?
    which build for sustained aoe? (are there currently any fights that require sustained aoe??)

    support:
    is 61 bard needed? if so which build? or better going bard hybrids for actual 10 man raids? if so which one? shade bard, tact bard, phys bard or other?

    ST heal:
    is still 61 phys good? which build?

    AoE heal:
    which build is preferable for current 10 man raid? some phys or bard hybrids? which builds?

    thanks in advance

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