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Thread: New PTS Balance Pass for Rogue

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    I honestly think these changes gave Marksman a decent spot in raids. (Equivalent or lower DPS than other ranged DPS specs from other classes). Now class balancing is in a cycle of overnerfing and overbuffing which will anger many players IMO.
    - instant Deadeye Shot
    - increased Legendary Rapid Fire Shot but slightly lower Empowered Shot
    - Empowered Shot ramps up faster



    Empowered Shot "slight nerf" should be like 10% instead of 30%. 2 second cooldown Empowered Shot AND 3 maximum Empowered Shot stacks basically killed Marksman and any other hybrids, it's so bad that I am afraid to switch specs and even try to touch it. RIP
    A slight change from the Jan 4th build would've leave MM in decent place, it will be stronger than Inquisitor but weaker than tempest and warlock.

    However with the Jan 10th changes added on MM essentially got put into Ranger tier and rogue no longer has any viable ranged spec.

    Let me explain what these changes mean in English so maybe Keyens will have better picture what exactly he is doing here.

    Dec 16th, 2016

    Legendary Free Recoil reduces the cast time of Deadeye shot by 1.5s. Empowered Shot ramps up faster. Now has a stack limit.

    Legendary Rapid Fire Shot - Damage increased dramatically (roughly 65%). This isn't 65% damage buff. Compared to live this was more like 16% which is not "increased dramatically". Legendary DES probably does more dps and doesn't require channeling. I am pretty sure Keyens buffed a wrong constant within the damage formula for RFS resulted in such a diminished result
    Live:
    New PTS Balance Pass for Rogue-live-rfs.jpg
    PTS:
    New PTS Balance Pass for Rogue-pts-rfs.jpg
    Jan 4th
    Legendary Free Recoil reduces the damage of Empowered Shot slightly. 30% nerf isn't "slightly", this skill along is nearly 30% of MM's total dps and 50% of the total sabman dps. Assuming Marksman/Sabman does 300k dps this change essentially took 34k dps off MM and 50k dps off sabman

    Legendary Deadeye Shot crit bonus reduced to 2x.
    Legendary Deadeye Shot damage reduced.
    Jan 10th:
    Legendary Rapid Fire shot damage reduced by 12%.
    Legenadry Deadeye shot damage reduced by 12%.
    Legendary Free Recoil causes empowered shot to have a 2 second cooldown. This essentially halves the already much weaker empowered shot dps, and this change not only halves Empowered Shot dps this also pushes the time between Deadeye Shot by ~33%. (Again assuming 300k dps mm and sabman, this change alone drops MM dps by 50k+delayed finisher block loss, this change drops sabman dps by 75k)
    If we look at the 2 empowered shot nerfs as a whole, assuming Marksman was doing 380k dps the 2 empowered shot nerf will at very least dropping MM dps by 84k (can cite the math work if necessary) which puts MM at less than 300k then you can go ahead the take 12% off rapid fire shot, then take roughly 25% dps off deadeye shot, then take ~20% dps off static shot munition procs for 33% slower rotation block due to empowered shot is granting half as many Combo Points compare to before and half as many static shock munition procs from this skill on top of everything else. This roughly puts MM at around ~260k range (good guess Huang) which is barely better than Ranger.

    Like Huang said the latest Empowered Shot nerf puts a nail in the coffin and pretty much made Marksman Ranger tier spec and officially kills off the viability from ALL rogue ranged souls. And rogues currently has no viable melee soul that can handle disconnect either.

    When marksman was doing about average dps after the last round of nerf, what you think will happen when you half the dps on a 25% dps distribution ability THEN push the finisher block by 33%?

    Common sense HELLO?
    And this isn't even counting the 12% nerf to DES and RFS.

    Let me put in this way the 2s cd empowered nerf is literally worse than nerfing it's dps by 60% straight up, at least there will be more Deadeye shots and nearly TWICE as many static shot munition procs

    I can't even imaging the status of sabman lol and it was already much weaker than marksman to begin with without all these Empowered nerfs.

    I miss Kervik, Allion, Atrius heck get Vladd back for a few days and have him look over class balances would also help tremendously. At least these guys had common sense.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 01-11-2017 at 06:25 AM.

  2. #47
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    Here's what the Systems Team is looking for now, no parses needed, because they are looking for FEEL:
    are there any builds that feel distinctively overpowered?
    are there any that just make you feel bad, unfun or seriously gimped?
    what are your favorite builds for FUN factor? Never mind if they are powerful or not.
    Because the don't ask for parses I think Keyens uses an internal simulation tool that can calculate the maximum theoretical damage from each class combination. The class system of Rift is however so complex that is not a trivial task and maybay with all the changes (legendarys, support classes, level 70 scaling) the tool does not work particularly reliably. Or it is really made everything in handwork which I can not imagine.

    Even in a highly polished game like WoW with a relatively linear class system, the perfect balance is not achieved but the output the balance patches in a shorter time frame. And certainly have more than one dev for this task.

    Summary: without the right tools, class balancing is an ungrateful and a never-ending task

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamul View Post
    Because the don't ask for parses I think Keyens uses an internal simulation tool that can calculate the maximum theoretical damage from each class combination. The class system of Rift is however so complex that is not a trivial task and maybay with all the changes (legendarys, support classes, level 70 scaling) the tool does not work particularly reliably. Or it is really made everything in handwork which I can not imagine.

    Even in a highly polished game like WoW with a relatively linear class system, the perfect balance is not achieved but the output the balance patches in a shorter time frame. And certainly have more than one dev for this task.

    Summary: without the right tools, class balancing is an ungrateful and a never-ending task
    I agree with you. But how do you screw up the balance so badly there are a 35%+ gap between ranged specs balance?

    And we are not even talking about aoe soul vs single target soul here... you have aoe ranged soul just pumping out 35% more single target dps than a ranged single target soul all while doing 500% more aoe dps on the side...

    Just how???

    How is he going to work on balance when he doesn't even play the game (judging by his lack of basic class mechanics knowledge).

    I talk about stuff I know.

    I spent my entire Vanilla Rift life playing raiding with voodoo and babytown on my mage.
    Voodoo disbands and babytwon went away shortly after...

    Then come SL expansion I switched from mage to warrior because I want to experience rotational play than the typical mages priority plays and I fell in love with the new tempest soul coz of the whole imaginary "UNLIMITED POWA" lightning from hands silliness.

    Then when NMT rolls around I didn't want to get pigeonholed into playing Reaver so I switched to Rogue.

    OFC I keep up with specs for mage/warrior and rogue and have them all at Lv70 with 2000 hit.

    Now I see our new class dev... I feel so hopeless.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 01-11-2017 at 04:00 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    The target is not 400k. They're just not balancing very well. Why don't you spend some time picking on the classes that are doing 480k?
    No idea what you are going on about.
    250k to 400k or 480k or 1000k doesn't matter. **** balance is **** balance there's no need to make it worse.
    And if you think a 35%+ disparity isn't too bad, I don't know what to say.

    And I am not picking on mage. I spoke the truth with mathematical proof. And you happen to provide that honest parse which helped me building my basis on. You don't like it because there's no way to argue with the facts with black and white proof.

    If bounch of warriors were actively saying how warrior is underpowered and then post a 400k parse, you bet your a.. I'd argue with them too. No hard feelings. It's really nothing personal. Just as I agreed and expressed that Marksman after the December buff became too overtuned and needs to be fixed. Actually multiple rogue players arrived to the same conclusion and supported the nerf (which led to the 1/4/17 changes).

    And guess what happens when DEV listened to the wrong guys who has no idea whats going on... just take a quick look at the pts balance... yep try again.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 01-11-2017 at 05:45 AM.

  5. #50
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Default 1/13/2017 PTS CHANGES

    ROGUE
    Tactician
    Legendary Curative Engine Tactician healing bonus reduced to 100%.
    Curative Torrent healing reduced by roughly 20% to compensate for the conversion to a smart heal.

    Marksman
    Barbed Shot damage increased by roughly 100%. Targets affected by your Barbed Shot take 20% increased damage from your other Marksman abilities.
    Legendary Free Recoil now always forces Empowered shot to be instant. No longer applies a stacking buff.

    Ranger
    Doubleshot now correctly grants you energy when triggering. No longer incorrectly grants the target energy.
    RIP Tactician hybrids, 'tis fun having them.
    This put Phys-tact ahead of other raid healing specs? I am guessing 58 tactician still does okay HPS and viable for raids once it gets a aoe cleanse and brez.

    Empowered Shot is still ambiguous, the 2s CD is still there but always instant (no hardcast ramping up?)

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by huangchingho; 01-13-2017 at 03:04 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    RIP Tactician hybrids, 'tis fun having them.
    This put Phys-tact ahead of other raid healing specs? I am guessing 58 tactician still does okay HPS and viable for raids once it gets a aoe cleanse and brez.

    Empowered Shot is still ambiguous, the 2s CD is still there but always instant (no hardcast ramping up?)

    Thoughts?
    MM is back to being really good on pts, the instant Emp Shot is great too, allows for a pretty good burst

  7. #52
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maltie View Post
    MM is back to being really good on pts, the instant Emp Shot is great too, allows for a pretty good burst
    tried it on PTS, the spec is extremely clunky and non-fun. I mean damage is fine, but i doubt anyone would enjoy playing this..
    Last edited by huangchingho; 01-13-2017 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    tried it on PTS, the spec is extremely clunky and non-fun.

    The Empowered always instant doesn't really provide any DPS.
    The 2 sec cd is still there, it makes MM play like ****.
    The Barbed buff helped but MM is still behind tempest and warlock.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 01-13-2017 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #54
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    i think the ES instant is actually just a clarification because stacks are removed, so its static 0.5GCD but 2s CD, so sometimes you get 2 CP and it took 1.5GCD, like I said, damage is even higher than live MM, but the spec is extremely anti-fun. If i can choose i'll pick the 1/4 version.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    i think the ES instant is actually just a clarification because stacks are removed, so its static 0.5GCD but 2s CD, so sometimes you get 2 CP and it took 1.5GCD, like I said, damage is even higher than live MM, but the spec is extremely anti-fun. If i can choose i'll pick the 1/4 version.
    I'd vote for 1.4 version as well.

  11. #56
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    IDK, if this goes live, i wouldn't enjoy playing MM either, because it's dumb that you get 2 CP every 2s, and when you do get 2 CP, it takes up 1.5 GCD, and in between 2s CD, it's 1 GCD and 1 CP per GCD. It's just doesn't feel like rogue anymore, you know. MM on live, you ALWAYS anticipate that you're getting 2 CP every 1.5GCD, so that you can time better and know when you're going to use a finisher (it becomes a sequence so you can practice and get used to it), on PTS, it's so easy to mess up because you gotta guess if your doing 2 CP next cast, so much randomness involved, so clunky, it's almost unplayable.

    It's getting worse and worse, no matter how much damage the spec does, it's ruined if Combo points randomness is involved. TL;DR. MM feels like a broken spec now
    Last edited by huangchingho; 01-13-2017 at 03:51 PM.

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    Since MM flow is pretty trashed where's the Assassin and Nightblade fix?

  13. #58
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Default PTS Update 1/13/2017

    ROGUE
    Tactician
    Legendary Curative Engine Tactician healing bonus reduced to 100%.
    Curative Torrent healing reduced by roughly 20% to compensate for the conversion to a smart heal.

    Marksman
    Barbed Shot damage increased by roughly 100%. Targets affected by your Barbed Shot take 20% increased damage from your other Marksman abilities.
    Legendary Free Recoil now always forces Empowered shot to be instant. No longer applies a stacking buff.
    Marksman: As I said previously, super clunky playstyle, not coherent at all. Sometimes you get 2 CP which you will have a 1.5 GCD (downtime, so you can't cast anything), sometimes you get 1 CP only, just get used to the randomness of how often CPs are granted.
    PS: You would now have to keep Barbed Shot up even if it means clipping it 5s ahead of Rapid fire Shot.
    Spoiler!


    Tactician received quite a significant nerf, probably stick to Phys-tact and bardphys for raids.
    Tactician now feels like the same-old 3.0 Tact that is bad at doing it's job. It does lower AOE DPS than a fully AOE DPS spec and is incompetent in doing burst raid heals, lacks important healing utilities like cleanse and battle resurrection.

    Here are the Tactician tooltips for reference from Live to PTS:

    Tactstalker (48RS/28TACT/0PHYS) aka. no-healer-tank-spec for experts:
    Spoiler!


    Phys-tact (45PHYS/31TACT/0RANGER) aka. the group-shielding raid healer:
    Spoiler!


    Phloromancer (38TACT/38PHYS/0RANGER) aka. the wannabe chloromancer for Rogues:
    Spoiler!


    58TACT (58TACT/18PHYS/0RANGER):
    Spoiler!
    Last edited by huangchingho; 01-13-2017 at 06:27 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangchingho View Post
    Info Overload
    Thanks brah, for doing the testing.

    So I just spent about 40 minutes parsing marksman.
    The pure single target dps is still much lower than warlock and tempest, no matter what I do.
    But at least it's somewhat usable now.

    The 2 second empowered very very annoying.
    It makes the spec so annoyingly clunky and feeling uneven and broken.
    It's like playing a spec with a mixture of 1s gcd and 1.5s gcd on alternating pace.
    MM is very cancer to play.
    This is not fun.

    If you feel the need to half the dps of empowered shot, then just HALF IT'S DAMAGE, half the damage Empowered Shot and keep it a 1 second cooldown so rogues don't get caught in the limbo of alternating length GCD playstyle... 1 gcd we are doing 2 attacks then the next we are doing 1...
    Again this is not fun not fun at all.


    Lastly Barb Shot having the 20% damage buff yet the debuff doesnt snapshot (I already tested).
    This mean we will be constantly clipping barbed shot and since the damage of Barbed Shot's DoT portion is 10x (1000%) of it's initial impact damage, this is a big dps loss to clip it. As we will have to clip barded shot up to 5 seconds ahead in participation for Rapid Fire Shot and Sentry Battery coming up.

    My suggestion is changing the 20% damage debuff of the barbed shot from 15s to 20s...
    You know like how lightning fury debuff lasts longer than it's cd. Or Rift Strike having longer buff than it's reuse CD~~~. Clipping Barbed is dps loss but we are forced to do this because it's even bigger dps loss if we have to push RFS or use anything MM without the barbed shot buff up.

    tl;dr for Keyens

    1. Half damage of empowered shot (when legendary free recoil is used), change the cooldown back to 1 second. This is to keep MM non-cancer to play. While keeping your preferred half dps on empowered shot.



    2. Consider giving barbed shot a longer debuff timer (15s->20s). So we don't feel like we are forced to clip it and take the dps loss to optimize dps.

    *reposting this on the pts thread.*
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 01-13-2017 at 07:53 PM.

  15. #60
    RIFT Guide Writer huangchingho's Avatar
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    Change Barbed Shot like Legendary Fiery Spike
    Other than that, I think Tact nerfs will put Tactician way behind other Raid heals souls from other classes like for example warden. I feel like if Tactician heals too much in PvP, then why not just nerf Curative Torrent more, this nerf will kill many other hybrids from Riftstalker (tank) to various different healing hybrids specs to all solo specs (for leveling or questing). Tactician is too weak that it will be the "worst" raid healing soul in the game. (maybe still a bit better than preserver if that counts). If tactician is being tagged as a AoE healing soul (RIP Tact AOE DPS), why not make it viable? Even if Tactician gets battle resurrection and cleanse, I doubt it can progress in 4.1+ contents. Maybe give Tactician more utility? like add some more HoT abilities, another heal finisher?
    Last edited by huangchingho; 01-13-2017 at 09:05 PM.

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