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Thread: Sab Rework

  1. #1
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    Default Sab Rework

    After several years of waiting its happening.

    What I am curious about is what the intent is with the rework. Sab has alot of problems currently. But I'm sort of wondering what direction Trion will be taking the soul. But moreover, what do you guys want to see?

    I'd personally like to see a way for sab to use focus charges verses the usual AOE damage charges they have. One of the main issues with sab is that while its great in an AOE situation, it doesn't really have much viability beyond that. Because of that its not desirable in raids, dungeons or open world content beyond situation bosses that require trash pack management. In PVP its a great soul in some warfronts but primarily just in Port Scion.

    Back in the day you could stack single target charges in such a way as to do big damage and it made the saboteur very desirable in dungeons. But with the changes early on to fix a bug which was multiplying detonate damage way to high, the class was useless until it was overhauled to be AOE focused. That left us where we are now.

    What I would like to see generally is a more versatile burst focused DPS soul. So lower on the consistant dps but great damage over time from bleeds/burns and heavy burst potential.
    I also think there is good utility possibilities with sabs for CC bombs or traps. better synergy with another soul or two other than bladedancer might also make the sab more interesting.

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
    Telaran
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    In my honest opinion sab is a great spec. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. Trion just didnt make any fights in T3 based around AoE DPS. Back in BoB sab was used on 2-3 fights. (GS/Earth Mini/Akylios) I honestly don't see any reason why it needs to be reworked, it fills its role very well. There is a proper way to play it and a lazy way to play it and if they are changing it because people like to play it with 1 button that seems silly.

    I saw that some of the focus was to remove it's reliance on GTAE's which I thought was part of the skill involved in playing it and enjoyed.

    I think 8/10 rogues would agree with me that there is far more value in changing some Tactician values than there is in a sab rework.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    I'm fine with a one button spec, I just think Saboteur is too simple and basic. You have a few bombs and a snare and a few traps, but it just feels kind of empty, and the whole one button spam makes it even more prevalent.

    But I definitely agree about the Tactician rework. I just hope that whatever they do with Sab, they do an awesome job. And for that reason, I'm excited for the changes. Even if it isn't as necessary as some other changes.
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  4. #4
    Rift Master Nasacrim's Avatar
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    Sab is a dedicated AoE soul like others, being sustained AoE damage pretty much its purpose. It fits in this category just like cabalist, stormcaller, champion and others. This is fine with me since its the only sustained AoE specs rogues have, and before ppl claim this no, neither bladedancer or nightblade are AoE specs and tactman just doesnt cut it, even with Planar variation and Bull's eye from marksman.

    That said, in my opinion it lacks more forms of utility and yes i feel too its rather "empty" other than its standart dps purpose, aoe debilitate and a root. It has no interesting mechanics, it basically "AoEs things in that circle if said things dont move".

    Solutions to this would be either make tactician our "to go" AoE sustained dps soul and completly rework sab to something overall new, less than a dedicated AoE soul, OR add more depth to the Sab soul, keeping its purpose intact and give tactician a purpose.

    (tldr.: Im fine with sab being a fully dedicated aoe soul, though it lacks depth and versatility and that should be fixed. I also think that giving a purpose to tactician is relevant to the sab rework.)

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    I don't see Sab being fixed without a massive rework changing everything about it, it's just too different and broken at the same time.

    As for Tactician improvement can be made to make it more appealing, which I have try to do in my suggestion below.

    Made some changed to the tree to move it away from only using Tact combo point abilities, as for the root I've move/replaced some abilities and changed what they do.

    Notes:
    Engines now stack.
    Cores require a target.
    Tried to word it so Torrents should deal equal amount of damage/healing to one enemy as they do 3, 5 or 8, so your damage is constantly the same no matter how many you are facing; kind of like how Storm Locus works.
    Torrents can now be toggle to hit only your target, giving you the ability to do greater st damage/healing on whoever you want without any cleave. Or can be toggle to deal damage/healing around the Rogue, so you don't have to face your target to hit them; though will require melee like range to work.

    Tree:
    Spoiler!

    Root:
    Spoiler!
    Last edited by Burninalways; 07-17-2016 at 02:44 AM. Reason: torrent wording
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  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninalways View Post
    snip
    Nope. Tact is most likely going to require a full redesign from the top down. The "jack of all trades" trying to juggle damage, healing, and support abilities was a failed experiment. Add to that the fact changing Tactician will break Phystac and you now essentially have to work on two souls. There's a reason it hasn't been worked on basically since it released.
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  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    There's a reason it hasn't been worked on basically since it released.
    That's not entirely true-- it did get a minor revamp partway through SL to kill torrent clipping.

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amary View Post
    TACTICIAN
    * Power Core: Functionality Changed. Now debuffs nearby enemies, increasing the damage they take by 10%. No longer in the same stacking group as Lava Field and Orchestra of the Planes, but now is in the same stacking group as Wild Growth.
    * Infernal Beam: Now affects a maximum of 8 targets per pulse.
    * Infernal Torrent, Glacial Torrent, Necrotic Torrent: Now affect a maximum of 8 targets per pulse. Initial energy cost increased to 15 from 10. Energy drained per second of channel has been reduced to 1 from 5.
    * Curative Torrent: Initial energy cost increased to 15 from 10. Energy drained per second of channel has been reduced to 1 from 5.
    * Heat Vent: Now reduces the initial energy cost of Torrents by 1-5, down from 2-10.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrar View Post
    * Tactician
    - Necrotic Torrent, Infernal Torrent, Glacial Torrent: Damage has been reduced.
    - Curative Torrent, Curative Beam: Healing has been increased.
    - Restorative Bolt: Healing has been increased. Can now be cast on yourself.
    - Primer: Now lasts 60s, up from 30s.
    - Curative Engine, Restorative Engine, Necrotic Engine, Empyrean Engine: No longer on GCD.
    - Empyrean Ray, Necrotic Ray, Curative Blast: Now removes stacks of Torrent Overload based on Combo Points.
    - Empyrean Engine: Now also increases the damage and healing done by Cores by 20%.
    - Empyrean Engine, Necrotic Engine, Curative Engine, Restorative Engine: Now are toggled abilities.
    - Power Core, Curative Core, Necrotic Core, Fortification Core: No longer restricted to setting at most 1 type of Core at a time.
    Torrent energy cost was changed so you couldn't clip. In 2.2. Engines were taken off the GCD and the restriction on the amount of cores you could have out at once was removed. In 2.3. There's been a tweak or two to numbers and a few bug fixes (mostly to address Tactbard and Phystact), but not much else.

    So for 40 of the 44 months since SL released Tactician has has for all intents and purposes been mechanically the same. I would call that "basically" since it released.
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  9. #9
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    Well all the other pure AOE specs have been reworked to make them more viable in non AOE situations. Because playing a spec that is useful for at most 2 or 3 fights in a raid is not a great use of content nor is it fun for the player. Tactician has its own set of problems, brought about by a scattershot design that leaves them ultimately useless except in a few low soul point off spec situations. Both are in need of rework. Sab is probably easier. Tactician would require alot of redesign work in my opinion.

    Bottom line is that I don't think its acceptable to have any soul only be viable in a few fights in a raid and not viable beyond that. The one exception for sab is that it is pretty good in larger pvp scenarios (Conquest, Port Scion). Its just way to situational. Slowly Trion has been reworking specs to make them so they are viable in multiple scenario's. They may excel at AOE (Cabalist, SC) but they are now more useful in single target and general PVE situations.
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  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelendross View Post
    Well all the other pure AOE specs have been reworked to make them more viable in non AOE situations. Because playing a spec that is useful for at most 2 or 3 fights in a raid is not a great use of content nor is it fun for the player. Tactician has its own set of problems, brought about by a scattershot design that leaves them ultimately useless except in a few low soul point off spec situations. Both are in need of rework. Sab is probably easier. Tactician would require alot of redesign work in my opinion.

    Bottom line is that I don't think its acceptable to have any soul only be viable in a few fights in a raid and not viable beyond that. The one exception for sab is that it is pretty good in larger pvp scenarios (Conquest, Port Scion). Its just way to situational. Slowly Trion has been reworking specs to make them so they are viable in multiple scenario's. They may excel at AOE (Cabalist, SC) but they are now more useful in single target and general PVE situations.
    You already have a spec that is more viable in st situations. NB or BD or Shade.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander Darkwolf9's Avatar
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    It's on the pts now, go check it out and give Mr Dev some feedback
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  12. #12
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    I'm assuming the old charges passive is going to be removed since we don't have those charges anymore?

    Detonate is not affected by either Ranged Combat Mastery or Ascended Biology.

    Is Even Strikes going to be changed since Charges are now a buff?

    Can we have Charges show up as a Class Mechanic? Just a QoL change.

    In my opinion, Last Ditch Effort shouldn't cost charges.

    Not sure why the old sab charges never caused auto attacks even with 0 points in marksman. If it is doable, I wouldn't mind having Sticky Bombs work in the same way (getting the AP from MM seems like the way to go with the build). Then you could apply them prepull and go Final Countdown>Satchel Charge>Last Ditch Effort>Time Bomb>Satchel Charge>Bottomless Bandolier>Sticky Bombs>Flashbang (till 10 stacks or before Final Countdown expires, whichever comes first)>Cloud Maker>Planar Variation at the tail end of Final Countdown... etc...

    I suck at stuff like this so feel free to correct me on anything. Looks cool so far. Burst seems decent, but damage over time might need to be increased a little bit. But that's just what I've noticed playing around with it for like 20 minutes.
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  13. #13
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    bugs/qol improvements:

    grand explosion not working with any sticky bombs

    annihilation sticky bomb tooltip says 0 targets but hits 3

    lots of inaccurate tooltips, for example "deals increased damage for every sticky bomb" or "foes standing in it take damage" on frag and anni sticky bomb.

    time bomb should grant stacks while off cooldown instead of having one icon to make it easier to track. i guess one could rely on the proc showing up as well but i'd prefer being able to check how much time left to fully charged time bomb any time.

    grand explosion buff icon has reaver plague bringer tooltip

    violent explosions talents description has one s more than necessary

    grammatic error in bottomless bandolier tooltip. yes thats important.

    time bomb tooltip does not update when long fuse talent is taken

    final countdown isnt working at all

    cloud maker generates a combo point but tooltip doesnt say it does

    time bomb damage is reduced by 15% instead of 30 when toggling grand explosion

    >>>grand explosion does not affect explosive exit<<<

    grand explosion reduces planar variation damage by 40% instead of 30%



    Overall I like the rework, it makes sab a lot more interesting to play. One thing I'm missing is cc. Sab has never had access to a lot of aoe cc but now it has none at all which will push it even further towards only being useful to kill trash packs.
    Volitility for example is a 99% useless talent that could easily be replaced with an aoe stun.

    The one non-bug thing i noticed while testing the abilities a bit was that Fragmentation Bomb only gets a ~5% buff for each sticky bomb on the target. Seems disproportional to the bonus of Scatter bomb.

    Also really dislike the rng on chemical mixture but rng seems to be all the craze with new specs

  14. #14
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    I haven't had much chance to play around with it yet but I like the changes. While I can't say I miss the GTAOE's I do think we need some CC.

    How about bringing in a Caltrop Sticky Bomb that can cause a slow and bleed (damage over time) to the target. How about something cool like a larger slow or a stun if the bomb critically hits? I'd also like to see a high point focused blast bomb that does single target damage and is not affected by grand explosion. Or in order to make the spec more friendly to new players it could be lower in the root sequence and then there could be a tree ability near the top that increases its damage.

    Aside from those initial bits of feedback I like it. Its early yet but I'll be doing a much more in depth look at it tomorrow. Will be interested to see how it works in PVP. Sadly my old sab spec will be rendered useless by this rework (44 sab, 22 BD) but such is life. Ironically that spec was just added in as a preset. The backboneof that was using the damage boost from Blade Tempo. Sadly its now 1 point out of reach unless you sacrifice Bandolier and Last Ditch which I think would probably be a fairly decent DPS loss.

    Anyone have any interesting hybrid possibilities yet?

    You already have a spec that is more viable in st situations. NB or BD or Shade.
    So why should Sab not be viable in those situations as well? What makes BD, NB and Shade special? As was pointed out in the livestream, having different souls overlap is not a bad thing. Nor is making a soul more playable to new players a bad thing either.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 07-22-2016 at 10:27 PM.
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  15. #15
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Well, Final Countdown is essentially a slightly weaker Blade Tempo, so not too much of a loss there, but I definitely agree that it should have CC. One thing I really like about 54/22 is the interrupt from BD. Having an interrupt in Sab is really useful.

    I'm also confused why we have a slip away. It just seems so useless. I feel like that could be taken out and replaced with CC. It's burst seems solid with Cloud Maker (though I do agree the 1-3 stacks per Satchel Charge/Flashbang is kind of annoying), but I do hope it has higher sustain than BD.

    To be honest, just looking at the tree, it doesn't seem very hybrid friendly, though Explosive Exit and Sabotage Run would be the first to go. Losing those 6 points would only cost you Battle Chemist and Bottomless Bandolier. So you could go something like 55 sab/21 BD and just lose the 1% Critical Hit chance from Quick Reflexes, so there's an option. You would have both Final Countdown and Blade Tempo, so that's actually not too bad (plus you'd get the interrupt )
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