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Thread: Default "New Rogue Soul" Thread

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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Default Default "New Rogue Soul" Thread

    So with all of the new threads revolving around the State of the Game letter from Archonix, and more specifically the announcement of new souls for each calling, I thought I'd initiate the rogue discussion.

    Rogues are overall solid in terms of roles available and flexibility, arguably the most flexible class in the game at the moment. That being said, I personally feel there is one area that there is a noticeable gap, and that's the AoE healing role. Right now we have two specs that are used for AoE healing and they're both hybrids. Phystact and Tactphys.

    Phystact

    Strengths: Strong shielding, Power Core, decent dps, easy to play.

    Weakness: Weaker burst, no raid healing cds (aside from Battle Remote which is only a self buff), rough on energy during "burst" due to spamming. ST heals (Causal/Expectant) aren't buffed by the AoE synergy crystal.

    Overall, Phystact is definitely useful and used in end game raiding, but definitely shows it's weakness during burst damage.

    Tactphys

    Strengths: Extremely high healing, Power Core, mindlessly easy to play.

    Weaknesses: No raid healing cds (aside from Battle Remote which is only a self buff), no battle rez, group must be stacked in front of you.

    Overall, Tactphys is rather useless on most fights especially without a battle rez in end game. I've only used it on Jinoscoth, Sicaron, and Inquisitor Garau.


    Based on what we have, I honestly think a rework of phystact would be more useful than a new soul altogether. I love the playstyle of phystact and would hate to see it get replaced. Not to mention it'd be hard to charge money for a rework.

    Some rework suggestions (Or, rather, what I feel is missing that we could see in a new AoE healing soul):

    -1 minute cd that reduces the cast time of causal treatment by 1.5s and cuts the energy cost in half.
    -1 minute 30s cd that reduces raid damage taken by 10% and increases healing and absorption done by 10% for 6s
    -Alternative Treatment hits 10 party members rather than 5 with the same penalty.

    Just a few things that I think would make phystact a solid choice for raid heals.

    With a new soul coming, I can't think of any other role that Rogues really need for endgame content aside from a good 61 point raid healing spec. Any thoughts?
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    I personally don't see a need for any new souls for anyone but primalists

    I have no idea what they have planned whatsoever.

    I think they should have instead focused on the souls that already exist and fix those. Whether it's quality of life changes or making under utilized souls more usable.

    That goes across all the classes.
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    stealth ranged class pls
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    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    They could just be adding support souls to each class so every class can do everything.

    So Warriors & Mages get a Bard/Oracle soul and Rogues & Clerics get a Archon/Beastmaster soul.
    Last edited by Burninalways; 02-05-2016 at 03:40 AM.
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    Rift Chaser Electrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninalways View Post
    They could just be adding support souls to each class so every class can do everything.

    So Warriors & Mages get a Bard/Oracle soul and Rogues & Clerics get a Archon/Beastmaster soul.
    Yup this is the only thing that would make any sense.
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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninalways View Post
    They could just be adding support souls to each class so every class can do everything.

    So Warriors & Mages get a Bard/Oracle soul and Rogues & Clerics get a Archon/Beastmaster soul.
    I actually didn't even think about that. Always just considered the two pairs as separate. That would actually be incredibly convenient.
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    Rift Disciple Metsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post

    Phystact

    ST heals (Causal/Expectant) aren't buffed by the AoE synergy crystal.
    Actually, all Physician abilities are considered ST heals, even Group Therapy which is a ST ability that smart heals 10 people.

    In PhysTact the only AE heal abilities used would be Curative Blast/Core. so for either of these the Medics Crystal is the only viable option.

    The only time a Rogue should use Caretaker's crystal is TactPhys, or Healing Bard.
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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metsa View Post
    Actually, all Physician abilities are considered ST heals, even Group Therapy which is a ST ability that smart heals 10 people.

    In PhysTact the only AE heal abilities used would be Curative Blast/Core. so for either of these the Medics Crystal is the only viable option.

    The only time a Rogue should use Caretaker's crystal is TactPhys, or Healing Bard.
    You sure about that? When I swap from Caretaker's to Medic's, the tooltip on Group Therapy goes from 28443 to 27856.
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    Rift Disciple Metsa's Avatar
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    Unless it changed, I'm 95% sure. For example.. look at the ability itself, it will show as a heal, and look at abilities like curative blast, it will show as an AE heal.
    The way I understand group therapies function, is that is will dispatch 10 ST (smart) heals that heal over time (this is why you can stack 2 group therapy in a 20 man and have the HoT on all 20 people). Unlike Curative blast that well... just hits 10 people likely closest to you.

    Also Group Therapy, like all Physicians ST heal abilities with alternative treatment will radiate from whoever the primary heal target is. This is generally the tank, or yourself. AE abilities like Curative blast just throws out a HoT to 10 people and this heal is based off your location regardless who you have targeted.

    If there is more information on this I would love to be educated with it myself.
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    Rift Disciple Metsa's Avatar
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    Well, I just logged on to check, and indeed the tooltip from Group therapy increased with caretakers crystal. from 25922 - 26492. I am now confused as the crystal reads the ability as an AE but everything else points to it being a ST.

    I am determined to find out more, but regardless, Causals, and Actives are still considered ST even with AT toggled on and in my opinion (haven't done the math yet since this new tooltip info)
    is still going to result in Medics Crystal winning the race.

    Probably need a new thread for this as it is a bit off-topic.
    Last edited by Metsa; 02-05-2016 at 09:51 AM.
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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metsa View Post
    Unless it changed, I'm 95% sure. For example.. look at the ability itself, it will show as a heal, and look at abilities like curative blast, it will show as an AE heal.
    The way I understand group therapies function, is that is will dispatch 10 ST (smart) heals that heal over time (this is why you can stack 2 group therapy in a 20 man and have the HoT on all 20 people). Unlike Curative blast that well... just hits 10 people likely closest to you.

    Also Group Therapy, like all Physicians ST heal abilities with alternative treatment will radiate from whoever the primary heal target is. This is generally the tank, or yourself. AE abilities like Curative blast just throws out a HoT to 10 people and this heal is based off your location regardless who you have targeted.

    If there is more information on this I would love to be educated with it myself.
    Yeah, it's rather confusing. I see that it says just "heal", yet the tooltip still drops when swapping to a ST crystal. And the tooltip on Group Therapy does not get cut in half when you turn Alternative Treatment on. To me, everything seems to point to it being an AoE heal even though the tooltip says it's just a heal. Would love to get a definite answer on this though.

    Overall, the way I see it, is that you have Curative Core, Group Therapy, Curative Blast vs Causal Treatment, Expectant Treatment, and Urgent Care (when used). So it's pretty close. I tend to lean towards Caretaker's simply because of Group Therapy, though I will gladly take more healing if that's not the case.
    Last edited by Artewig; 02-05-2016 at 09:53 AM.
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  12. #12
    Plane Touched jkelley393's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I'm unhappy about the introduction of new souls to begin with and I'm against it. Some acceptable options for new souls for any calling would be a PVP-oriented soul that would necessarily suck in PVE, or a new solo-oriented soul that would suck in raids.

    That said, the only role Rogue can't really effectively fill right now is an archon equivalent of support. Any new support soul would have to be BETTER than bard and AS GOOD as Harbchon, or no one will buy it. Harbchons are the kings of support and any new support soul worth paying for would have to compete with or replace them.

    A 61 point AOE soul is worth considering, but I personally love the playstyle of phystact and I'd hate to lose it. If phystact was replaced, it would make tactician almost a completely pointless soul to have, not really an acceptable fate for a paid soul. Therefore a 61 point AOE heal for rogue should have to bring something new to the table, although what that would be I cannot yet guess.

    As far as I'm concerned, what really remains to be seen is the intent behind these new souls. Are they going to be designed to fill completely new niche roles in raids so that every raid feels they need to have those souls to stay competitive, or just better versions of what we already have, so much more powerful that every player will feel they need to have them to stay competitive? The precendent of selling power has already been set. Even those who didn't feel they needed to buy the Primalist calling may feel forced to buy ANY new soul to stay competitive.

    In the past, new paid souls/callings were designed to give NEW ways to do things. In the future I'm afraid they're going to be selling BETTER ways to do things.

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    Really not sure what will be added to rogue, but as far as the archon/bard thing goes, I don't see a soul pack that has 4 support souls selling that well. Maybe they'll go more with the storm legion souls approach and add new stuff (like defiler and tactician).

    If they go with the dream pack approach (adding roles the callings didn't have before) I could see maybe a full aoe melee soul, or maybe a aoe heal soul. Something Dom-like is an outside possibility, but likely would cause too many pvp issues to happen.

  14. #14
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    RE the Crystal confusion:-

    Group Therapy is an AoE effect and thus benefits from the AOE crystal only. Hence the tooltip shows it as a bigger heal when used with it. Alternative Treatment has no effect on GT; it only affects CP generating abilities.

    However, it is the Medic's Crystal (ST heal) that should be the crystal of choice for PhysTacts. Why? Causal Treatment, your biggest source of healing, is, functionally, an ST ability and thus benefits from the ST crystal - even with AT on. Sure, neither GT, Curative Blast nor your Core get buffed but they heal less and are HOTs, but you get more benefit buffing where it matters most, for both overall and high burst damage, and for that it's CT spam.

    RE- New souls.
    I don't get why they would introduce new souls whilst there are two for us that are functionally redundant.
    Ranger is not used except by casual or new players, it's nowt but an off soul with nothing beyond it's low hanging fruit to warrant further investment.
    Tactician is only used as the lesser half of one hybrid build: Phystact. Sure, that could use a tweak or too but it is a generally good and much used build. If they want to make some changes, make Tactician a dedicated AOE healing build with a res...or at least do something to make it worth having.
    Last edited by Synchro; 02-06-2016 at 05:36 PM.

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    A Harbchon/54 BM equivalent seems like the most plausible suggestion.

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