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Thread: In a 10 Man Raid - What is the value of Orchestra and Verse of Joy

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default In a 10 Man Raid - What is the value of Orchestra and Verse of Joy

    We have been engaging in a speculative conversation (in guild) whether running a battle bard/night bard in a 10 man raid (RoF or IGP) is a DPS gain or loss.

    I am currently at 1300 hit, with approx. 12000 AP, 37% CP (non-MM) and 27% phys crit.

    I know for me, when I run a 61 bard, I pull approximately 35k+/- DPS but obviously I am contributing more to the overall raid with my OoP and Verse of Joy.

    When I run my battle bard spec, I usually pull approx 55k+/- DPS but without Oop or Joy.

    I personally believe running a battle bard in 10 mans is better and a 61 full bard for 20 man content.

    What does everyone else think and thanks for the feedback.

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser Electrah's Avatar
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    Verse of Joy is immensely useful for rogues during their cooldown blocks.

    As for running full bard, I'm sure someone else did the calculations before if the dps gain from VoJ + Orchestra outweighs your personal dps loss. I would bet it is a "yes" for 10-man content (and obviously a big "no" for 5-man content).

    Personally I do somewhere between 50 and 60k as 61 bard (4NB 11 MM), depending on the fight (with 1400 hit).
    I think on our last Uruluuk HM kill I did 82k as full bard, but that is with the crystal buff :P
    Last edited by Electrah; 01-11-2016 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Added some details on my bard spec
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  3. #3
    Telaran Meatbone's Avatar
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    Gather together your 10 man team at the guild dimension and parse with 61 then your Battle Bard. You’ll get your answer, and see what the difference in DPS is.

    + 10 DPK please lol
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    Plane Walker PrincessToxic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brothertuck View Post
    We have been engaging in a speculative conversation (in guild) whether running a battle bard/night bard in a 10 man raid (RoF or IGP) is a DPS gain or loss.

    I am currently at 1300 hit, with approx. 12000 AP, 37% CP (non-MM) and 27% phys crit.

    I know for me, when I run a 61 bard, I pull approximately 35k+/- DPS but obviously I am contributing more to the overall raid with my OoP and Verse of Joy.

    When I run my battle bard spec, I usually pull approx 55k+/- DPS but without Oop or Joy.

    I personally believe running a battle bard in 10 mans is better and a 61 full bard for 20 man content.

    What does everyone else think and thanks for the feedback.


    here is the simple answer. Try running ROF without either of them. I have run rof without one or the other, hell at one point we had neither- but as a phys tact i have a 10% increase power core for 15 s and luckily we had a chloro with WG as well. We would have never met the dps check without that. this was a pug raid with some tier 1 and some less than tier 1 geared people- and 1 or 2 tier 2/3
    Last edited by PrincessToxic; 01-12-2016 at 11:01 AM.

  5. #5
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    The only true loss of using a battlebard vs a full bard is Verse of Joy.

    My biggest problem and the reason I hate playing full bard is that every last damn thing that I can do as a full bard that I can't do in battlebard is already taken by Archon. Verse of joy is the ONLY real thing that a full bard brings to the table.

    If Archon wasn't all over my nutsack as a full bard, I'd have more fun with it.

    At the very least, make Orchestra on par with lava field's cooldowns. Let me compete on that front as well.

    I prefer playing the nightbard. I pull 70-90k depending on buffs, timing, and positioning while I only pull 50-60k as full bard.
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  6. #6
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Orchestra is invaluable. Don't think of Lava Field as "getting in your way," see it as an extra boost to raid dps. The amount of dps lost from not having OtP is not worth the personal dps gain, hands down.

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    Plane Walker InflatablePanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    Orchestra is invaluable. Don't think of Lava Field as "getting in your way," see it as an extra boost to raid dps. The amount of dps lost from not having OtP is not worth the personal dps gain, hands down.
    Verse of Joy is a pretty big deal.
    Last edited by InflatablePanda; 01-12-2016 at 07:14 PM.

  8. #8
    Phs
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    Shield of Telara Phs's Avatar
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    From my experience, the bards who complain about lava field are the one's who cry when an archon tells them to stop being bad. Cause tracking lava and using Orch after is so ****ing hard.
    Last edited by Phs; 01-12-2016 at 07:42 PM.

  9. #9
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    I never said it wasn't useful, nor did I say it was hard.

    I simply feel like all I am good for is being the mana battery with a half-assed version of lava field when I go full bard.
    Last edited by Kumu Honua; 01-12-2016 at 08:50 PM.
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  10. #10
    Plane Touched Vedryne's Avatar
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    When we used to run RoF with ~1100 hit gear and fellow rogues on assasin (as opposed to nb-based builds), nb/bard was a clear raid dps increase for us. It's especially so on fights were you have less dpsers (Finric).
    However, I wouldn't be running nb/bard on IGP as the general raid dps is higher. You might want to calculate it for the first boss, but it's definetely a no for the second, any way you look at it.
    Apart from what's already been said, keep in mind that the hybrid (at least the versions I know) doesn't have energy cost reduction buff, so no chloro = no bard/nb.

    I understand you pretty well, though, compared to archon's dps, or even BM's at that, bard's dps looks pathetic. But it is as it is...


    Phs, my complaint about lava field is as follows: why does archon with his near-dpser numbers of dps has a cd on 1min that's practically the same as bard's on 2min (yes, yes, bard gets a couple of seconds extra - so what)?
    The only timing issues arise when the archon is oversleeping his lavas and puts them out at random (not talking about the mechanic-based delays), 16s late, 27s late, whatever.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
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    Bard and archon aren't the same type of support. You can't compare lava to orchestra or bard dps to archon dps. But, orchestra lasts longer and doesn't require you to be stacked so in that sense it's better than lava if that helps you like it more

    Orchestra shouldn't be underestimated, and on a 1 minute cooldown it would be quite a large raid dps increase
    Last edited by ILikeOranges; 01-13-2016 at 08:00 AM.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumu Honua View Post
    I simply feel like all I am good for is being the mana battery with a half-assed version of lava field when I go full bard.
    Just tell one of your clerics to go 61 Oracle and play a full dps spec. You'll do more dps than the cleric anyway.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker PrincessToxic's Avatar
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    if you have your bard rotation down pretty well its one of the easiest specs in the game. pop jeopardy let the archon do the rest of the debuffs

    after lava pop VOJ+ORC
    virtuoso+Riff and spam your dmg finisher (or heal, depending on situation..)
    Rinse and repeat in 2 minutes. (Virtuoso and riff may come off CD before voj+orc does)
    Last edited by PrincessToxic; 01-13-2016 at 09:05 AM.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Default Lots of interesting comments

    I want to thank everyone for all your comments and input. We are currently just progressing to T2 content so I think alot of factors including raid composition is a key factor....for example we do not currently have a competent Oracle in our raid team and therefore we have to have a bard currently as someone is working on playing an oracle.

    I do appreciate everyone's input and I know on certain fights, a full bard is needed (ie - Simon Says) but on the 3rd boss in IGP I am not sure Orchestra is useful due to the anti stacking mechanic of the stealing the gems and therefore I do think the battle bard would be a gain there (just my 2 coppers)

    Happy raiding all.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    For the third boss, the dps check is not nearly as tight so I would say go full bard for the added heals. And the mechanic isn't really an anti-stacking mechanic. You should all stack behind the boss and then move out when you're targeted for it.
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