+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: Rotation Help

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default Rotation Help

    Hi There,
    I am strugling with some DPS and was hoping for some insight. Again, I am not a hard core gamer so some of the vernacular of gaming I may mess up so please pardon any typos or mis-types.

    I am playing a 61MM 11 Rgr 4 NB
    My gear is okay and i have a couple of pieces of Tier 1. My CP is around 38%

    Here is what I use:
    I open with Hasted Shot then I apply Barbed Shot and then I use this Macro to build:

    #show Calculated Shot
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Empowered Shot
    cast Calculated Shot
    cast Lightning Fury
    cast Swift Shot
    cast @self Energy Manipulation

    After 5 pts Finisher Macro:
    #show Rapid Fire Shot
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Rapid Fire Shot
    cast Deadeye Shot
    cast Hasted Shot

    I sorta rinse and repeat with Strafe thrown in there every so often or a "burst" type Single DPS (a lot in pvp) or something else and this finisher. Below is my "single DPS " macro:

    #show Sentry Battery
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Bull's Eye
    cast Sentry Battery

    So i know it isn't great as I see other rogues dong more dps, but its pretty simple at the moment. There are some other powers I may pop during the rotation, but as I said I know it can be improved upon. I am looking for advice and macros that help if you can?

    I am pulling about 45k dps on a practice dummy, but I see others easily in the 50k range if not much higher. What is also strange is that my CP Bow pulls less DPS then my PC bow.

    Any advice is appreciated.
    Thank you
    Last edited by Hide; 01-04-2016 at 08:51 AM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,837

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hide View Post
    #show Calculated Shot
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Empowered Shot
    cast Calculated Shot
    cast Lightning Fury
    cast Swift Shot
    cast @self Energy Manipulation
    Right off the bat, that macro is bad news bears. Calculated Shot should be on its own key, and you should only use it when you have the buff from Swift Shot or Hasted Shot.

    In fact, you shouldn't be macroing ANY of the builders together. Marksman is not the kind of spec that you can simplify down to a builder and a finisher macro, at least not if you want to optimize your DPS.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    I'd check out this guide.

    First thing I'd say is get Calculated Shot out of your macro. Second thing I'd say is take Lightning Fury out of your macro. Lightning Fury should be managed separately. On full ST fights, you only need to use it once every 30s whereas if you have it in your spam, you're using it once every 10s. Marksman is centered around getting the most Calculated Shots possible. So by consuming the Swift Shot or Hasted Shot buff (small movespeed buff when either Swift Shot or Hasted Shot is used), Calculated Shot won't go on cooldown. You want to use Calculated Shot after every Swift Shot. You don't have to put it on cooldown at all, but if you want to minmax, you can put it on cooldown right before the cd block:

    Bull's Eye>Rapid Fire Shot>Empowered Shot>Deadeye Shot>Sentry Battery

    Your opening should be Energy Manipulation (prepull)>Deadeye Shot>Barbed Shot>Lightning Fury>Calculated Shot>CD block

    I have a finisher macro with Rapid Fire Shot, Deadeye Shot, and Hasted Shot in it, but you also need to make sure you have Deadeye Shot on a separate key for pulling and for when Rapid Fire Shot comes off cd before Bull's Eye does.

    There's a minmax version with Strafe, but I generally don't use strafe unless I'm completely out of energy.

    Definitely check out that guide though, I probably missed some things.
    Last edited by Artewig; 01-04-2016 at 09:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser DeLivia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    388

    Default

    The biggest reason to your DPS loss is that builder macro. First of all, you shouldn't put calculated shot in a macro as it will be put on cooldown if not used properly with swift shot. Secondly, don't use Lightning Fury as a builder. Instead, only apply it when the armor debuff has/is about to drop off, which is every 30 seconds.

    As for your opener: There are some different ones, the two I use is Deadeye Shot > Barbed shot > Lightning Fury > Calculated Shot > Bull's Eye > Empowered Shot > Rapid Fire shot > Emp Shot > Deadeye > Sentry Battery. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the best opener. If I'm lagging a bit more than usual (which happens every now and then since I'm in EU, playing on an NA shard), I use Barbed Shot (at 5 CP) > Bull's Eye > Rapid Fire Shot > Empowered Shot > Deadeye Shot > Sentry Battery. Does less damage, but less likely to miss that last bit as you really don't want to cast Sentry battery without Bull's Eye up.

    Edit: Well this is a redundant post if I ever saw one.
    Last edited by DeLivia; 01-04-2016 at 09:16 AM.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    31

    Default

    As Artewig already mentioned, check out Ilikeoranges's guide. It's well written and also shows you how to min-max your dps. You made some quite big errors which severely hamper your ability to do dps.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default

    Thank you very much for the insight and help. I did read that link and I did get a little confused. Its actually embarrassing because everyone says its great and easy to follow and I can't. t I am just trying to learn stuff and keep getting confused between certain terms. for example Like opening vs starting rotation vs builder differences.
    So with that being said I have a couple of questions that may help me understand the link better?
    • What to you mean by minmax?
    • For the cooldown block you are saying that those powers would be off (or coming off cool down) and you need to hit them again? And they won't be on a macro.
    • How do i know (or see) when the "movement buff" is on from SS or HS so I know when to use Calc shot? I don't use Kruel Alert that is y i ask
    • It sounds like for MM the only macro used is pretty much a finisher, all other powers use their own keys?
    • If I understand the nomenclature correctly: Use your opening recommendation until you get to 5 pts then your finisher and rinse and repeat. However, when your cooldowns are up, you hit those and then go back to your opening to get to 5 pts again ( i know this sound very basic, i am just trying to get a "flow" understanding)?

    I hope this makes sense? Like I said I am pretty much a basic player and still learning a lot. I piece meal a bunch of stuff together to get where I am.

    Thank you for your help. The responses have already helped a bunch!

  7. #7
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hide View Post
    Thank you very much for the insight and help. I did read that link and I did get a little confused. Its actually embarrassing because everyone says its great and easy to follow and I can't. t I am just trying to learn stuff and keep getting confused between certain terms. for example Like opening vs starting rotation vs builder differences.
    So with that being said I have a couple of questions that may help me understand the link better?
    • What to you mean by minmax?
    • For the cooldown block you are saying that those powers would be off (or coming off cool down) and you need to hit them again? And they won't be on a macro.
    • How do i know (or see) when the "movement buff" is on from SS or HS so I know when to use Calc shot? I don't use Kruel Alert that is y i ask
    • It sounds like for MM the only macro used is pretty much a finisher, all other powers use their own keys?
    • If I understand the nomenclature correctly: Use your opening recommendation until you get to 5 pts then your finisher and rinse and repeat. However, when your cooldowns are up, you hit those and then go back to your opening to get to 5 pts again ( i know this sound very basic, i am just trying to get a "flow" understanding)?

    I hope this makes sense? Like I said I am pretty much a basic player and still learning a lot. I piece meal a bunch of stuff together to get where I am.

    Thank you for your help. The responses have already helped a bunch!
    Minmaxing is changing things in your rotation that increase your dps, but not by a ton so a lot of people consider them optional. So an example of minmaxing would be changing the cooldown block. The block most use is the one I said in my initial post, but if you don't have lag and want to increase your dps a little more, you can go Bull's Eye>Empowered Shot>Rapid Fire Shot (at 5 combo points)>Empowered Shot>Deadeye Shot>Sentry Battery. There is just enough time to get Sentry Battery into the last tick of Bull's Eye. Since it's a loss if you miss Sentry Battery, most just don't do it and use the other cooldown block I mentioned.

    A cooldown block is generally a combination of several heavy hitters that usually line up with raid cooldowns. I know that's pretty vague, but there's not much else to it. So Bull's Eye and Sentry Battery have a 1 minute cooldown, making them "cooldowns". In other rogue specs, you have Poison Malice in Assassin, Feral Aggression/Animalism in Ranger, Blade Tempo in Saboteur, Touch of Darkness/Living Flame in Nightblade, just to name a few. For most specs, you want to have cooldowns out of your main macro so that you can use them at optimal times. For most fights, Raid Cooldowns (Flaring Power, Lava Field, Orchestra of the Planes, etc) won't go off initially, but rather a few seconds into the fight (giving time for support to debuff the boss) so you want to hold your cooldowns until those Raid Cooldowns go off. That's why you go Deadeye Shot>Barbed Shot>Lightning Fury>Calculated Shot>cd block instead of starting with the cd block.

    If you don't use kalerts, then you either need to watch your buff bar (the buffs have the same icons as Swift Shot and Hasted Shot) or pay attention to when you use Swift Shot or Hasted Shot. Though I'd highly recommend kalerts. It tells you when to use abilities and is a pretty small addon as far as computer performance goes.

    Personally I have a builder macro (Empowered Shot and Swift Shot, sorry Muspel) and a finisher macro (rapid fire shot, deadeye shot, hasted shot) and everything else is on it's own key.
    Just as an example, this is my bar:
    Rotation Help-2016-01-04_125615.jpg

    As for your last point, you've got it for the most part. Most rogue specs revolve around building to 5 combo points and using a heavy hitting finisher. So after your cooldown block (after sentry battery ends), you'll be at 5 combo points. From there, follow ILikeOranges' standard rotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default

    TY TY TY , this helps a lot. I appreciate the time and info. I will work on this this eve, see how it goes and then possibly get back with you. Is it okay to private you or should i post here with questions?
    Again, thank you very much!
    Regards-

  9. #9
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    I can help you in private if you want, but if you don't mind, I'd say post any questions you have here as I'm sure there are others with the same questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hide View Post
    Thank you very much for the insight and help. I did read that link and I did get a little confused. Its actually embarrassing because everyone says its great and easy to follow and I can't. t I am just trying to learn stuff and keep getting confused between certain terms. for example Like opening vs starting rotation vs builder differences.
    So with that being said I have a couple of questions that may help me understand the link better?
    Nothing to be embarrassed about don't worry :P when I wrote the guide it was with high end raiding in mind and I realise it isn't the most beginner friendly. If you're still very new and haven't gotten any add-ons sorted, or any proper combat experience you might want to start simple with just macroing calculated shot initially (though I really recommend taking it out as soon as you're comfortable with some game mechanics and spec mechanics).

    You already mentioned you don't have kalert, but it's incredibly useful of a tool and I'd recommend looking into it


    ILikeOranges@Zaviel - ARAK IS FINALLY DEAD (MoM World 1st)

  11. #11
    Rift Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    641

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeOranges View Post
    If you're still very new and haven't gotten any add-ons sorted, or any proper combat experience you might want to start simple with just macroing calculated shot initially (though I really recommend taking it out as soon as you're comfortable with some game mechanics and spec mechanics).
    This. A lot of the guys that pop in here are the higher end raiders, and really do forget what it's like when you first start out. Improper management of calculated shot is not nearly the loss that other's make it out to be.

    In a "proper" rotation, calculated shot makes up about between 10% - 15% of your DPS total. I worked it out once, and macroing it compared to proper management was somewhere in the range of only 10 CS vs. 15 per minute. So we're talking under 5% difference. Not insignificant when min-maxing, but if the gap is bigger than that, you obviously have bigger fish to fry.

    Biggest thing is to not waste GCDs. So that means being able to push your buttons while moving, as well as knowing when to move vs. standing still and casting DES.

    Next, as others have said, is using your CD block properly. Usually that means using it as soon as it's up. However, there's some fights where you may want to hold onto it for a burn phase. As Art said, ideally you want to line them up with the raid CDs (Flaring Power, Lava Field/Orchestra & Wild Growth/Power Core).

    Third is the proper management of your bleeds / HotS. In this case, that's Barbed Shot. Especially important for MM since it also increases your crit chance of your channels. You want to make sure it's applied to your target for the duration of Sentry Battery & Strafe, but you don't want to clip it (re-apply before it's duration is over) either.

    Once you've got all that figured out, then I'd recommend pulling Calculated out of your macros for that final push.

    With regards to Add-Ons: KAlerts is great so you can track those buffs/debuffs that are important to the spec you play. Also, some type of DPS meter. Big two are SuperMeter and RiftMeter. You can also configure KAlerts to track raid buffs/CDs, but I've switched to Choco CDs. Easier to configure, plus you get timers to show when they should happen vs. kalerts where you'd only see when they activate and have to time it yourself.

    Lastly, regarding your PC bow vs. CP bow: Not enough information here. However, my guess is that the PC bow is from a higher tier, and hence has a higher weapon DPS. As a MM (or any "ranged" spec), the biggest contributing stat is ranged weapon DPS. As such, you'll sometimes see some MM using a tanking bow because it has a higher weapon DPS than any DPS bow they actually have. (Conversely, melee specs use the weapon DPS of their Main Hand weapon).

    Hope that all helps.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default

    Okay, this has all be very helpful believe me, very helpful.
    But now after reading all of this and trying to get it straight more questions come up and I am falling back into the "still learning and this basic talk" mode. So I will apologize as this inherently brings up more questions and I am sure they are very very basic. So hopefully this doesn't frustrate anyone. As I am looking at the build and trying to get the rotation in my head, I want to clarify a few things. Now you may have already answered so if so sorry, but I am just trying to get it to make sense....

    So using Organge's build as the template to follow, and using the advice from all of you, this is what I have come up with at a high level rotation ( and there are some asks in here).......

    1. I will basically open with the "opener":
    (cast Energy Manipulation Pre-Pull) -> Deadeye Shot -> Barbed Shot -> Lightning Fury -> Calculated Shot

    2. Now that I have done the opener listed above I will have 5 pts (i am assuming) and you hit your finisher macro at this time. Then after the finisher you go to your cooldown block :

    This is the cooldown block to use ----> Bull's Eye -> Empowered Shot -> Rapid Fire shot -> Empowered Shot -> Deadeye Shot -> Sentry Battery (if barbed shot down, get Barbed up). ??if barbed shot is down do you hit barbed before your finisher or hit finisher then barbed?

    (cooldowns should be on separate keys and they should be hit individually because they haven't been used yet. And I know that each fight can change but basically you will do this action) ?? Now does this cooldown block get your 5 more points?? If so, then i imagine hit the finisher again after the cooldown gets you 5 pts??

    3. Then after I have used the cooldown block casts (and I am guessing I have just hit the finisher because the cooldown block gives you 5 pts), then you go right into the builder ( which can either be the "empowered shot & swift shot " that Art described or Organges rotation which is below)?

    1) Rapid Fire Shot > Deadeye Shot (unless bull's eye is coming off cooldown soon, in that case use another deadeye)
    2) Calculated Shot when swift shot or hasted shot are active, otherwise swift shot
    3) Empowered Shot in every buildup
    4) Refreshing barbed shot and lightning fury (especially making sure barbed shot does not run out before you use a channel)--->

    4. So again assuming you use either builder (Art or Oranges) until you hit 5 pts and then when you have 5 points you hit the finisher again. Now once your start the "builder" you just keep going back and forth from the builder to the finisher when you have 5 points (unless Barbed needs to be refreshed) until mob or player is dead. And if in a long fight then you will hit the cooldowns when they come up as well?.... and that's the rotation.

    In short***Opening-->Finisher-->Cooldown-->Finisher-->Builder-->Finisher-->Builder-->Finisher--> etc. ... Until dead (or hitting barbed in between or hitting cooldowns in between)?***

    So again sorry for the basic questions and I hope that makes some kind of sense. I will work with getting k-alerts and I know that each fight can be different, but looking for the basic guide lines in basic fights. BTW I do Rifts, NTEs, Bosses and Warfronts is where i hang out mostly, FYI.

    Again, thank you very much and i hope this makes sense.

    ,

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hide View Post
    1. I will basically open with the "opener":
    (cast Energy Manipulation Pre-Pull) -> Deadeye Shot -> Barbed Shot -> Lightning Fury -> Calculated Shot

    2. Now that I have done the opener listed above I will have 5 pts (i am assuming) and you hit your finisher macro at this time. Then after the finisher you go to your cooldown block :

    This is the cooldown block to use ----> Bull's Eye -> Empowered Shot -> Rapid Fire shot -> Empowered Shot -> Deadeye Shot -> Sentry Battery (if barbed shot down, get Barbed up). ??if barbed shot is down do you hit barbed before your finisher or hit finisher then barbed?
    You've got most of it understood to a decent level, but the opener, after using
    Deadeye Shot -> Barbed Shot -> Lightning Fury -> Calculated Shot -> Empowered shot

    You will have 3 combo points. The last 2 would come from the empowered shot which is used at the beginning of the 'cooldown block' (which i've moved to the end of the opener for this post)

    Bull's Eye -> Empowered Shot -> Rapid Fire shot -> Empowered Shot -> Deadeye Shot -> Sentry Battery

    I recommend just leaving the empowered shot out of the cooldown block, so it would move to the opener (i've highlighted it red from where you take it out, into where you move it). This makes it a lot easier to execute your cooldown block properly.

    In short; The opener gets you to 5, and then you do the "cooldown block" starting at 5 CP.

    As for barbed shot, always use it before you begin the cooldown block if you think it will run out.

    But yeah like I mentioned before, and like somebody else mentioned, just begin by understanding basic game mechanics, how support cooldowns work, and focusing on pressing buttons at all times, including while moving. The basic concept of most rogue specs is build to 5 combo points, then use a finisher, and repeat (with cooldown blocks usually every 1 minute)
    Last edited by ILikeOranges; 01-04-2016 at 04:39 PM.


    ILikeOranges@Zaviel - ARAK IS FINALLY DEAD (MoM World 1st)

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default

    ok, that makes sense and thank you.
    RL came up so can't get in game but will tomorrow. I am hoping that I have the basic understanding and can apply while in game, but we will see tomorrow

    Again thank you. This helps a great deal, believe me. Possibly more to come tomorrow if I hit a snare, but hopefully I won't as this has been great. Cant wait to try this.

    Thanks again-

    Last edited by Hide; 01-04-2016 at 09:06 PM.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default

    So it seems to be working well. I am still struggling with a few things, but I think it will take time. If not I will reach out.
    But on a couple of Nightmare Rifts and some Invasions hit the high numbers that i have been seeing.
    Yeaaaa
    Thank you again!!!!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts