+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 13 of 13
Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By Foolio
  • 1 Post By Foolio

Thread: Are melee getting shafted with the planar crafted gear?

  1. #1
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    58

    Default Are melee getting shafted with the planar crafted gear?

    Hello everyone,

    I was wondering if someone might be able to explain this to me. To be honest, I don't understand the reasoning behind it and it infuriates me to some degree. (Mind you, I'm not listing the dmg procs in the weapon listings because they are the same for 1h weapons.)

    Here are the rogue weapons:

    Bloodthirster's Abhorrent Blade
    Damage per second: 620.5
    912-1694 damage every 2.1 sec
    Strength +160
    Dexterity +251
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Crit Power +156

    Bloodthirster's Abhorrent Stilleto
    Damage per second: 620.6
    782-1452 damage every 1.8 sec
    Strength +160
    Dexterity +251
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Crit Power +156

    Now compare this to the caster weapons and off-hand:

    Arcanist's Blazing Edge
    Damage per second: 496.4
    625-1162 damage every 1.8 sec
    Intelligence +251
    Wisdom +160
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Spell Power +2017
    Crit Power +156

    Arcanist's Blazing Spellstaff
    Two Handed Staff
    Damage per second: 645.3
    1355-2517 damage every 3.0 sec
    Intelligence +502
    Wisdom +320
    Endurance +346
    Hit +250
    Spell Power +4035
    Crit Power +313
    Equip: Grants a chance for your damaging Critical Hits to deal an additional 7387 - 9028 Water damage.

    Arcanist's Blazing Totem
    Off Hand Totem
    Damage per second: 496.0
    347-645 damage every 1.0 sec
    Intelligence +235
    Wisdom +181
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Spell Power +2017
    Crit Power +156

    Heretic's Faetouched Mace
    Damage per second: 496.5
    938-1743 damage every 2.7 sec
    Intelligence +160
    Wisdom +251
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Spell Power +2017
    Crit Power +156

    Heretic's Faetouched Maul
    Two Handed Hammer
    Damage per second: 645.5
    1717-3189 damage every 3.8 sec
    Intelligence +320
    Wisdom +502
    Endurance +346
    Hit +250
    Spell Power +4035
    Crit Power +313
    Equip: Grants a chance for your damaging Critical Hits to deal an additional 5065 - 6190 Water damage.

    Heretic's Faetouched Tome
    Off Hand Totem
    Damage per second: 496.0
    347-645 damage every 1.0 sec
    Intelligence +181
    Wisdom +235
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Spell Power +2017
    Crit Power +156


    Take a look at the rogue tank weapons as well:

    Blackguard's Tidal Blade (The Blackguard's Tidal Mace is almost similar in stats)
    Damage per second: 620.5
    912-1694 damage every 2.1 sec
    Strength +151
    Dexterity +181
    Endurance +251
    Block +211
    Hit +125
    Equip: Grants a chance when Dodging an attack to create a barrier that absorbs half of incoming damage up to 10439 damage for 5 seconds.

    Compared to the caster's tank weapons and off-hand: (Also some from Artificer)

    Diviner's Telluric Mace
    Damage per second: 496.5
    938-1743 damage every 2.7 sec
    Intelligence +151
    Wisdom +181
    Endurance +251
    Block +211
    Hit +125
    Spell Power +2017
    Equip: Grants a chance when Dodging an attack to create a barrier that absorbs half of incoming damage up to 10439 damage for 5 seconds.

    Maegis' Tidal Staff
    Two Handed Staff
    Damage per second: 645.3
    1355-2517 damage every 3.0 sec
    Intelligence +362
    Wisdom +302
    Endurance +502
    Block +421
    Hit +250
    Spell Power +4035
    Equip: Grants a chance when Dodging an attack to create a barrier that absorbs half of incoming damage up to 20878 damage for 5 seconds.

    ----------------------------

    What I am referring to is the fact that the caster items contain double stats. Rogue weapons have crit power, if for dps, and block if for tanking. On the other hand, casters have Spell Power AND Crit Power for DPS and Block AND Spell Power for tanking.

    What gives? Could someone please give me an explanation that actually makes sense? I understand that the "DPS" of the caster weapons are lower but they are not relying on the DPS of their weapons as us melee do and instead rely on the attributes of their main and off-hand.

    Thank you for your time.

  2. #2
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    2,006

    Default

    I believe there's a bug somewhere that causes mage/clerics item procs to do more than they intended? Could be mage only. I saw a parse somewhere mage trinket was procing for a crazy amount of dps or something.

    I am not sure tho.

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    888

    Default

    Short answer: caster calling weapons always have spell power because they don't use weapon DPS to affect ability values.

    For martial callings, the weapon dps affects the tooltip values for abilities requiring that weapon type (specifically, 1 weapon dps = 5AP modified by whatever tree talents).

    For casters, there's no such effect. Weapon DPS only affects autoattacks. Instead, all weapons provide a basic amount of spell power appropriate to their tier, in much the same way all martial weapons of the same tier come with exactly the same weapon DPS. They then pick up their extra stat in the same way as martials, but when it's additional SP it combines with the base SP for weapons of that tier.

    Ranged caster weapons have no base SP, which is why they look more like the martial versions.

    The reason this is probably the case is so that casters' power scales more off their non-ranged weapons than anything else, which is the same as warriors (and partly rogues).

    All in all, rogues probably get the worst deal because some abilities scale off their ranged weapon and others on their melee weapon. And they can't use 2h weapons, so probably more rolls to win.
    Spellbook@Greybriar
    Rejuvenation@Greybriar

  4. #4
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    58

    Default

    I'm not worried about the proc'ing so to speak since most of the planar weapons have the same procs. The concern I have is that caster gear has an extra stat such as critical power AND spell attack power. While melee gear only has critical power and no attack power.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    888

    Default

    Alrighty, time for the long answer.

    The SP you see on those weapons is tied to the weapons' tier. All caster expert epic weapons have about 2017 SP (double if 2h) on them which is tied to the fact that they are epic expert tier weapons. Similarly, roguey ones have 620.6 weapon DPS.

    T1 weapons have a base of 2407 SP, and 740.6 weapon DPS.

    As someone who (presumably) plays a rogue, hopefully you are aware how much of a difference the +80 weapon DPS is (+400 AP without modifiers to weapon contribution). Because casters have no reliance on weapon DPS, in order to make the large jump from the equivalent weapon upgrade, it's necessary to have spell power stuck to the weapon in the same way weapon DPS is.

    On top of that, the weapons can have either more SP, some spell crit or some CP just the same way it is with rogues.

    So, if we look at some real weapons of expert epic tier, they all have "double stats", but the amount of SP each has it similar, and is similar to the values you've listed in your first post. And when they have additional spell power instead of spell crit/crit power, they look like this.

    There is nothing unusual about the crafted caster items.
    Last edited by Foolio; 09-02-2015 at 02:58 PM.
    Spellbook@Greybriar
    Rejuvenation@Greybriar

  6. #6
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Short answer: caster calling weapons always have spell power because they don't use weapon DPS to affect ability values.

    For martial callings, the weapon dps affects the tooltip values for abilities requiring that weapon type (specifically, 1 weapon dps = 5AP modified by whatever tree talents).

    For casters, there's no such effect. Weapon DPS only affects autoattacks. Instead, all weapons provide a basic amount of spell power appropriate to their tier, in much the same way all martial weapons of the same tier come with exactly the same weapon DPS. They then pick up their extra stat in the same way as martials, but when it's additional SP it combines with the base SP for weapons of that tier.

    Ranged caster weapons have no base SP, which is why they look more like the martial versions.

    The reason this is probably the case is so that casters' power scales more off their non-ranged weapons than anything else, which is the same as warriors (and partly rogues).

    All in all, rogues probably get the worst deal because some abilities scale off their ranged weapon and others on their melee weapon. And they can't use 2h weapons, so probably more rolls to win.
    Ok, question for you Foolio, if this weapon was made for each class. Which class would benefit from it the most?

    Damage per second: 496.0
    347-645 damage every 1.0 sec
    Intelligence +235
    Wisdom +181
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125

    Damage per second: 496.0
    347-645 damage every 1.0 sec
    Dexterity +235
    Strength +181
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125

    Damage per second: 496.0
    347-645 damage every 1.0 sec
    Strength +235
    Dexterity +181
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125

    Damage per second: 496.0
    347-645 damage every 1.0 sec
    Wisdom +235
    Intelligence +181
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125

    ----------------

    When I looked at a Mage with 1784 Intelligence they gained 1338 Spell Power and 1784 Spell Crit from the Intelligence.

    When I looked at a Warrior with 1911 Strength they gained 1433 Attack Power and 955 Physical Crit from the Strength.

    Calculations suggest that the 1 Intelligence of the mage is worth .75 spell power and 1 spell crit. But with the warrior, the 1 Strength of the warrior is worth .7498 attack power but only .4997 physical crit.

    Does this mean that Casters have a higher crit rating over the melee classes then? Especially since weapons not only give stats but also an extra attribute (crit power PLUS spell attack power rather than only attack power or crit)

  7. #7
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    888

    Default

    In order of the tooltips:

    Mage
    Rogue
    Warrior
    Cleric

    For every calling the main stat should provide 0.75 AP/SP and 0.5 crit chance. The offstat should provide 0.25 AP/SP and 0.5 crit chance.

    Hopefully this makes the above order make sense:

    Mages = Intelligence main stat, Wisdom offstat
    Clerics = Wisdom main stat, Intelligence offstat

    Thus, any item of gear which has more Int than Wis is more desirable for mages than clerics.

    Rogues = Dexterity main stat, Strength offstat
    Warriors = Strength main stat, Dexterity offstat

    And the numbers you are seeing seem to just be the game not spitting out decimal places and preferring to round down instead.

    1911 * 0.75 = 1433.25 AP
    1911 * 0.25 = 955.5 Phys crit

    Whether or not the decimal places are actually included in ability tooltips isn't something I've actually tried, but all callings are subject to the same calculations there.

    As for caster weapons giving an extra attribute, this isn't actually quite true, because 1 weapon DPS increases your attack power on ability using that weapon type by 5. If you have talents which say stuff like "increases weapon contribution to attack power by x%" then that number will change accordingly.

    So if you were wielding a bow with 100.0 weapon DPS in a spec with no points spent, you actually have +500 attack power to all abilities marked "requires ranged weapon" which is not shown on your statsheet. For dualwielding, the mainhand's weapon DPS is the important one.

    In any case, all this stuff does balance out in the end. The balance of individual souls seems to make more difference in the numbers game, but then again I'm not all that knowledgeable about that end of things.
    Spellbook@Greybriar
    Rejuvenation@Greybriar

  8. #8
    Ascendant Crithappens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,068

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aieanah View Post
    When I looked at a Mage with 1784 Intelligence they gained 1338 Spell Power and 1784 Spell Crit from the Intelligence.

    When I looked at a Warrior with 1911 Strength they gained 1433 Attack Power and 955 Physical Crit from the Strength.

    Calculations suggest that the 1 Intelligence of the mage is worth .75 spell power and 1 spell crit. But with the warrior, the 1 Strength of the warrior is worth .7498 attack power but only .4997 physical crit.

    Does this mean that Casters have a higher crit rating over the melee classes then? Especially since weapons not only give stats but also an extra attribute (crit power PLUS spell attack power rather than only attack power or crit)
    Primary stats are always 0.75 power and 0.5 crit chance
    Secondary stats are always 0.25 power and 0.5 crit chance

    Intelligence hasn't been worth 1 crit chance since the 1.x days.

    And again, as everyone has tried to explain to you, the casters are NOT getting double-statted items. Warriors and Rogues gain scaling from both weapon damage and attack power. Clerics and Mages gain scaling from spell power and ONLY spell power. As such, all Cleric/Mage weapons have an amount of spell power equal to the amount of weapon damage that an equivalent Rogue/Warrior weapon would have.

    For example...

    Arcanist's Blazing Spellstaff
    Two Handed Staff
    Damage per second: 645.3
    1355-2517 damage every 3.0 sec
    Intelligence +502
    Wisdom +320
    Endurance +346
    Hit +250
    Spell Power +4035
    Crit Power +313

    So we have an "effective power" of 4035 from the +Spell Power.

    Bloodthirster's Abhorrent Blade
    Damage per second: 620.5
    912-1694 damage every 2.1 sec
    Strength +160
    Dexterity +251
    Endurance +173
    Hit +125
    Crit Power +156

    Our WDPS (Weapon DPS) is 620.5.

    Dual-wielding causes your main-hand weapon to gain a 1.3x multiplier to WDPS.

    620.5 x 1.3 = 806.65

    1 WDPS = 5 AP

    806.65 * 5 = 4033.25

    So the Rogue weapon has an "effective power" of 4033.25 from weapon damage.

    So the discrepancy is the equivalent of 1.75 "effective power"... really not worth mentioning.
    Rahka@Wolfsbane

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    888

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crithappens View Post
    Dual-wielding causes your main-hand weapon to gain a 1.3x multiplier to WDPS.

    620.5 x 1.3 = 806.65

    1 WDPS = 5 AP

    806.65 * 5 = 4033.25

    So the Rogue weapon has an "effective power" of 4033.25 from weapon damage.

    So the discrepancy is the equivalent of 1.75 "effective power"... really not worth mentioning.
    I knew there was some way to get the equivalence between WDPS and SP, but forgot exactly how it worked. Thanks!
    Last edited by Foolio; 09-02-2015 at 03:27 PM.
    Spellbook@Greybriar
    Rejuvenation@Greybriar

  10. #10
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    3,254

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aieanah View Post
    Ok, question for you Foolio, if this weapon was made for each class. Which class would benefit from it the most?
    Warriors and Rogues?

    Warriors and Rogues would get about:
    ~3445.5 AP
    194.5 Phys Crit

    While Mages and Clerics would only get:
    221.5 SP
    194.5 Spell Crit


    Since you clearly didn't understand what Foolio said, let me say it again:

    Warriors and Rogues benefit from Weapon DPS.
    Mages and Clerics doesn't.

    Every ability for Warrior use their main hand weapon DPS for calculating damage.
    Every ability for Rogue tagged as "Require Ranged Weapon" use the Ranged Weapon DPS while every other abilities, at the exception of Bladedancer and off hand and both hands attacks, use the main hand weapon DPS for calculating damage.

    A one hander weapon DPS is 1.3x it's weapon DPS multiplied by ~5 to have an equivalent in AP.
    A two hander weapon DPS is 1x it's weapon DPS multiplied by ~5 to have an equivalent in AP.

    Mages and Clerics gains RAW Spell Power from their weapons.

    The truth is: Mages and Clerics are the one getting SHAFTED because they require BOTH their main hand AND their off hand in order to gain the full benefit of a tier of weapon while Warriors and Rogues only require their main hand (or bow) in order to be 100% effective as their off hand is nothing more than a stat stick.


    TL;DR: Warriors and Rogues favoritism like usual.
    Cheesecakesandwich - Mage 70 | Wrecking - Warrior 70
    Italiansausage - Cleric 70 | Snaplemouton - Rogue 67
    Primalsandwich - Primalist 70
    I'm a grand connoisseur of the most delicate dish known as the poutine.

  11. #11
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crithappens View Post
    Primary stats are always 0.75 power and 0.5 crit chance
    Secondary stats are always 0.25 power and 0.5 crit chance

    Intelligence hasn't been worth 1 crit chance since the 1.x days.
    I apologize for the:

    When I looked at a Mage with 1784 Intelligence they gained 1338 Spell Power and 1784 Spell Crit from the Intelligence.

    When I looked at a Warrior with 1911 Strength they gained 1433 Attack Power and 955 Physical Crit from the Strength.

    Calculations suggest that the 1 Intelligence of the mage is worth .75 spell power and 1 spell crit. But with the warrior, the 1 Strength of the warrior is worth .7498 attack power but only .4997 physical crit.
    -----------

    I was trying to alt-tab out and type at the same time and got the intelligence mixed up with the actual spell crit. It would have made sense if I actually looked at what I typed and previewed it before I posted. Thanks for pointing out my error.

  12. #12
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    58

    Default

    I apologize to everyone in advance. I wasn't looking to try and cause problems I honestly did not know how the mechanics worked and am trying to figure out if there or why there was a reason for casters to have that extra stat in their weapons when rogues and warriors did not.

    I thank you all for enlightening me concerning the mechanics of the game.

  13. #13
    Rift Master Godgrinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    632

    Default

    melee gets shafted in pvp, not in itemization, well maybe somewhere.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts