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Thread: Build help... PVP Duo Stealth Rogues - Phys, Sin, ?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Build help... PVP Duo Stealth Rogues - Phys, Sin, ?

    Hello all,

    After playing a Cleric essentially forever, I decided to instant-60 up a Rogue to play some Duo WFs with a friend who also plays Rogue. I'm looking at something along the lines of Physician, Assassin, Marksman for ranged perma-stealth heals.

    Does anyone have any build ideas for this? Friend is going pure DPS, but I want to be able to heal enough to keep the two of us alive (don't need a ton in Phys) + perma stealth from Assassin.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    As I tell anyone who insta-60's where they don't know what they're doing,

    roll another rogue(on another server if you don't have room) and level it to about level 40. This'll give you a chance to learn the basics of the soul.



    As far as build ideas: Rogue has very weak low-level talents in almost all of its souls. a 3-way hybrid is going to have worse performance than running around nearly naked in just about any 61-build

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quwo View Post
    roll another rogue(on another server if you don't have room) and level it to about level 40. This'll make sure that you have hours and hours to learn bad habits with abilities that function differently from how they do at endgame, ensuring that you are even worse off with your new 60 than you would be if you just jumped in headfirst
    Fixed that for you.

    Seriously, not only is leveling not going to teach him how to play, it's going to do the opposite, because so many abilities are missing core functionality until very high levels.
    Last edited by Muspel; 05-16-2015 at 04:34 PM.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    I'm not a new player. I've had a 1100 hit Cleric for seemingly months, but I've never played Rogue.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    Seriously, not only is leveling not going to teach him how to play, it's going to do the opposite, because so many abilities are missing core functionality until very high levels.
    calling*

    You're right I don't recommend using pre 65 *rotations* for any particular souls.

    but if you want a general sense of how the calling plays, the lower levels are fine, without the added encumbrance of keeping track of several dots or cooldowns

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
    I'm not a new player. I've had a 1100 hit Cleric for seemingly months, but I've never played Rogue.
    It doesn't matter whether you're a new player or if you've been playing for years-- starting from level 1 is still the worst possible way to learn any of the rogue souls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quwo View Post
    but if you want a general sense of how the calling plays, the lower levels are fine, without the added encumbrance of keeping track of several dots or cooldowns
    No, they aren't. They don't give you the first clue about how the soul plays, and in some cases they actually add complications to the rotation that aren't present at endgame, so not only are you not learning about the challenges that you'll actually have to deal with, you're learning to fix ones that you won't.

    Let's take a look.

    Bladedancer: The soul is simply not functional until level 50, because you can't maintain a dance rotation. This means that players are encouraged to save and use their dances as cooldowns, instead of cycling through them like the playstyle actually requires.
    Assassin: At low levels, you have to manage Expose Weakness manually, and are missing the ONLY part of the rotation that actually takes any practice (Serpent Strike).
    Marksman: Between missing finisher functionality (Free Recoil) and hardcasting Empowered Shot, low-level Marksman is nothing like endgame MM.
    Ranger: Cast times on Splinter Shot and Shadow Fire, and the absolute lack of the cooldown block that defines the rotation.
    Bard: Manual motif maintenance.
    Nightblade: Manual Fiery Spike refreshing. Also, the lack of Eventide, Death From the Shadows, Scourge of Darkness, Touch of Darkness, Living Flame, Ebon Fury, and Dark Descent means that you don't have ANY of the pieces of the actual rotation.
    Tactician: No Torrent Primer, no Necrotic Bolt, no Temperature Inversion.
    Physician: No Causal Treatment or Expectant Treatment.
    Saboteur: Oh, god. Everything. The bombs aren't even real finishers until you take talents that make them consume combo points.
    Riftstalker: Probably the soul that's least affected by this problem, but even then you have no Shadow Mastery and no Power of the Planes, which means that you can't maintain Planar Vortex until level 27 and are taught to save it for emergencies.

    If you want to learn how to play a soul, make a full build and start using it while maybe leaving out certain mechanics until you've mastered the basics-- IE try to do the Ranger rotation without Splinter Shot or Ace Shot until you've mastered the cooldown block, then start worrying about juggling debuffs. This way, you can ensure that all of your abilities are doing what they're supposed to, while still learning at your own pace.

    But with the way that the souls are designed, leveling is the opposite of a tutorial.
    Last edited by Muspel; 05-19-2015 at 06:01 PM.

  7. #7
    Champion Fallse's Avatar
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    Default @ op

    To answer your question I often stealth duo with a friend we have tried various builds and combos the only viable build for what your looking for is a full dps + 54phys (Supportive Care) /22sin (Perma Stealth + Foul Play) /0bd (Sidesteps)
    http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree/p...EFkg/yk6Ri50/x

    That combo will be good on domination maps and codex only .... and even there you will need to play smart you will have various cc's between you ... cc1 / burn down the other with your dps / pop a few heals / then back to dps ... your dps will be awful but you will have decent heals and perma stealth

    It can be a fun combo but we have found it is generally better to run 2 full dps builds when your playing the stealther game ... it is a question of preferance of course.

    You can always go full sin and just 8 in Phys for UrgentCare ... that will be a splash heal post fight but not enough to "heal" but your dps will be significantly higher than with 54 phys .. youll need to fool around with it and see how much dps - heal ratio you like.

    Most of the "Optimal Builds" on the forums are PVE derived to min max dps with no thought to a specific group make up or purpose other than burning down a boss. Experiment maybe full dps with some bard ... etc etc the only must imo is 21 sin for perma stealth ... if your playing the stealther game then perma stealth is a must.

    Good Luck ;)

  8. #8
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    I generally just run MM in pvp, so I can't help you there, but as for the instant 60 posts, I instant 60'd a cleric and it was really easy to get started. Sure you have to take a bit of time to read the tooltips and understand what the spec is, but with the guides, you don't have to worry about playing something incorrectly. Whereas the majority of those guides are not nearly as functional pre-65 or pre-60. I agree that leveling is a horrible way to learn a class, especially for endgame. With endgame, there's generally one, maybe two variations of your spec and neither of those will be the same one that you leveled with. So, you can spend hours grinding from 1-65 only to change specs once you hit 65 or you can go 60-65 and start out with the right spec.

    Also, who's going to scrap their level 60 that they paid money/plat for in exchange for a level 1 of the same class?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    It doesn't matter whether you're a new player or if you've been playing for years-- starting from level 1 is still the worst possible way to learn any of the rogue souls.


    No, they aren't. They don't give you the first clue about how the soul plays, and in some cases they actually add complications to the rotation that aren't present at endgame, so not only are you not learning about the challenges that you'll actually have to deal with, you're learning to fix ones that you won't.

    Let's take a look.

    Bladedancer: The soul is simply not functional until level 50, because you can't maintain a dance rotation. This means that players are encouraged to save and use their dances as cooldowns, instead of cycling through them like the playstyle actually requires.
    Assassin: At low levels, you have to manage Expose Weakness manually, and are missing the ONLY part of the rotation that actually takes any practice (Serpent Strike).
    Marksman: Between missing finisher functionality (Free Recoil) and hardcasting Empowered Shot, low-level Marksman is nothing like endgame MM.
    Ranger: Cast times on Splinter Shot and Shadow Fire, and the absolute lack of the cooldown block that defines the rotation.
    Bard: Manual motif maintenance.
    Nightblade: Manual Fiery Spike refreshing. Also, the lack of Eventide, Death From the Shadows, Scourge of Darkness, Touch of Darkness, Living Flame, Ebon Fury, and Dark Descent means that you don't have ANY of the pieces of the actual rotation.
    Tactician: No Torrent Primer, no Necrotic Bolt, no Temperature Inversion.
    Physician: No Causal Treatment or Expectant Treatment.
    Saboteur: Oh, god. Everything. The bombs aren't even real finishers until you take talents that make them consume combo points.
    Riftstalker: Probably the soul that's least affected by this problem, but even then you have no Shadow Mastery and no Power of the Planes, which means that you can't maintain Planar Vortex until level 27 and are taught to save it for emergencies.

    If you want to learn how to play a soul, make a full build and start using it while maybe leaving out certain mechanics until you've mastered the basics-- IE try to do the Ranger rotation without Splinter Shot or Ace Shot until you've mastered the cooldown block, then start worrying about juggling debuffs. This way, you can ensure that all of your abilities are doing what they're supposed to, while still learning at your own pace.

    But with the way that the souls are designed, leveling is the opposite of a tutorial.
    To repeat myself: Who optimizes rotations before level 60? By the time you've mastered your optimized rotation you could have gained about 20 levels. You put your skills & some arbitrary macros on the bar & basically mash buttons since even the masteries can cause drastic changes to your rotation down the line.

    But, since you bring up the diminshed details of the classes: In a thread about creating custom hybrid classes, these changes to rotation & to how abilities work are quite relevant since you're almost certainly going to have to deal with them in a hybrid build.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quwo View Post
    To repeat myself: Who optimizes rotations before level 60? By the time you've mastered your optimized rotation you could have gained about 20 levels.
    Nobody optimizes rotations before level 60 because you literally cannot learn the optimized rotation. Instead, you're just picking up bad habits. Those twenty levels that you just gained were just time spent ingraining bad habits that you'll have to break later.

    What you're suggesting is akin to teaching someone how to drive a car by handing them a spare tire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quwo View Post
    You put your skills & some arbitrary macros on the bar & basically mash buttons since even the masteries can cause drastic changes to your rotation down the line.
    None of the rogue masteries cause drastic changes. The most major ones are probably Timed Focus for Bladedancer and Aggressive Defense for Ranger, and both of those are still relatively minor in that they only affect the frequency at which you use certain abilities, rather than the way in which you use them.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    None of the rogue masteries cause drastic changes. The most major ones are probably Timed Focus for Bladedancer and Aggressive Defense for Ranger, and both of those are still relatively minor in that they only affect the frequency at which you use certain abilities, rather than the way in which you use them.
    I would say the Dfts cooldown reduction and the increased Expose Weakness length are pretty major as well, however I agree that the adjustments you have to make to account for them are not drastic.

    With leveling, you gain abilities that make the rotations more complex as you level, so the theory behind that is that you take on little by little until you hit 60 when you have all the parts of the rotation (now 65). But the issue with that, is that it only works in the first few levels or so. You pick up a finisher. Now you pick up an ability that has a cooldown. Then it gets complex to the point where adding an ability can cause a large change in your rotation. So if you had that ability from the start, you could practice with it and you wouldn't have to learn two different rotations, ie, starting from level 60. Sure no, one at level 40 is going to spend a ton of time learning the best rotation for their level, but they're not going to just use the abilities in the order that they get them. Most players will get the new ability, look at the tooltip and go "how does that fit in my rotation?". So, while they're not optimizing, most have a general sense of prioritizing and the priorities at level 40 are pretty different from the priorities at 65, not to mention spending the time learning the rotation and then learning the new rotation. So how is starting over, very well knowing that they will be playing differently at level 65, going to be better for them? I'm pretty bad with all the Cleric terms and such, but the more I use it, the more I learn, especially when I have all the cards from the start.
    Last edited by Artewig; 05-26-2015 at 12:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
    I'm not a new player. I've had a 1100 hit Cleric for seemingly months, but I've never played Rogue.
    Right. Somehow I missed that statement earlier. Well, what I was trying to get at (before getting caught up in an argument over sematics), Rogue plays very differently from Cleric in several ways. You'll figure them out as you play but the big one I want to focus on is the general squishyness of just about every rogue build.
    I doubt I'll be able to convince you with just words of how big the difference is until you've experienced it but my point is this:

    As a rogue, survival often comes down to taking out your target, and stopping to lick your wounds before you go after the next one. (By level 35 I learned to always keep a stack of food or drinks handy. Compare to my 64 cleric, which I'm pretty sure has never eaten anything that wasn't a quest item)


    That in the back of our minds, let's theorycraft a place to start from:
    permastealth = 21 assassin. There's no way around this minimum if you want permastealth.
    Along with this you get:
    3 weapon enhancements aka poisons, (of which you can use 2 at a time)
    1 5s(for pvp) stun, out of combat only
    1 6s -until damaged cc, optional
    1 4s from-stealth stun to kick off the fight.
    some cricital hit & damage increases:
    one possible point spread gives you 5% increase to crit chance, 10% to damage, and an additional 15% for 10s (= 9-10 GCD's) after each crit (lose 5 of that for switching targets) plus the standard 21% you'll get for 21 points in sin
    (I'm ignoring optional meelee moves, since you mentioned you want ranged combat)


    That gives you 40 points to put in MM and physician.
    For both of these, the heavy hitting abilities are near the end. Since you're getting so much of a boost to and from criticals thanks to the 'sin points, I would go down MM as far as you can & focus on further boosting the crit capabilities within that tree as well.

    Play with physician as a 0, 8, or 12 point soul to figure out which one you like best. Phys has another crit chance improvement available after 5 points so that should help mitigate some of the damage losses there.


    For playstyle, hit small/isolated groups and heal during downtime. You'll do well in codex-style matches, situationally well in capture-the-flag style, and probably should avoid rugby style like library and the garden's fang edition.

    For gear, I would guess that you want to prioritize crit power, then endurance, then ap, then dex


    And I want to emphasize again, this is all theory-craft based. It's a starting point and when you play with it, you'll see lots of places where you can improve on what I said here.
    Last edited by Quwo; 05-26-2015 at 08:09 PM.

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