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Thread: Bard suggestions for more versatility in raids

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Bard suggestions for more versatility in raids

    A bard in a raid is great for many abilities that they have. Increasing attack and spell power as well as critical hit chance. Reducing damage by 5%. As well as helping with raid healing and debuffing mobs.

    Unfortunately, I've ran into a few problems that seem to irk me while playing a bard in a raid.

    Several of the abilities we have do not help in raid situations and I think it would be nice if these were tweaked so that we could be of better assistance during raids. I'd like to list a few of the abilities and get feedback on what others think of this.


    Verse of Captivation:
    Currently Verse of Captivation is as follows: Mesmerizes for 8 seconds or until damaged. Can only affect 1 enemy.


    I think it would be great if Verse of Captivation was changed to something such as: Interrupts and the target is mesmerized for 8 seconds or until damaged. Can only affect 1 enemy.

    This would not cause a problem in PVP since the mesmerize interrupts an enemy player if mesmerized. The change for this would allow bards to actually be able to interrupt enemy NPCs during raids. Most NPCs are immune to Verse of Captivation so the skill is not useful in a raid setting. The change would be similar to the Marksman Deaden skill. Interrupts and the target is debilitated for 5 seconds and cannot be debilitated by deaden again for 45 seconds. Most NPCs are immune to the debilitation affect but are interrupted. The new skill would be similar in that it interrupts the NPC but the mesmerization would not be implemented because the NPC is immune.


    Verse of Purity:
    Currently Verse of Purity is as follows: Removes one curse, disease, or poison from up to 10 party or raid members every 3 seconds for 3 seconds.


    As many bards know, Verse of Purity does not work on harmful debuffs from NPCs the majority of the time. Instead of keeping the ability as it is, it would be great if it was changed to something such as: Removes a buff from up to 10 party or raid members every 3 seconds for 3 seconds.


    This would be a Bard's "Purge" but it would not be as powerful. The change would only allow the removal of a buff from members of the bard's raid. Purge removes buffs from players and NPCs as well as removing harmful buffs from friendly players. This skill would only remove harmful buffs from the bard's raid/party members.


    Anthem of Glory:
    Currently, Anthem of Glory increases armor by 4000 and all resists by 130 on all party or raid members.


    In all honesty, an addition of 4000 armor to players at level 65 is not much of a bonus. I am not complaining about the 130 resist addition. In all honesty, I have resisted NPC spells due to the increase of 130 so I am not complaining about that.


    I thought something like this would be interesting as a change to Anthem of Glory: Anthem of Glory increases armor equal to the attack power of the bard, all resists are increased by 130, Guard is increased equal to 1% of the attack power of the bard on all party or raid members.

    This would not be a powerful upgrade, but it would be a little more helpful to the raiding community you are in. Let's say you have 10,000 attack power. Anthem of Glory would increase the armor of all party or raid members by 10,000. At level 65 this is not a huge boost compared to the current armor of tanks in raids, but it would help more than the 4000 armor currently given by the skill. The resists increase would remain the same. Adding Guard increased by 1% of the attack power of the bard on all party or raid members would not be a game changer, but adding 100 guard to the tanks of the raid would help. This would not cause tanks to become indestructible, but it would cause the Anthem of Glory skill to be considered a viable anthem to be debated upon rather than the usual "just use Anthem of Competence."


    As I've said previously, these changes or tweaks would not cause an imbalance in PVP but, instead, would cause bards to have more versatility in the raiding community.


    What do you all think about this? Do you think it could be a great idea or do you see problems with this that I have overlooked.


    Thanks,


    Aieanah

  2. #2
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    1st change - fine, makes sense
    2nd change - you just want Spell Destruction from VK for Bard, which is also fine.

    3rd change - overpowered/awkward
    Our bard gets close to 20k AP in raids, that is 20k Armor, which is roughly 10% of what I have raid buffed in Armor. Too steep.
    Guard is also ineffective, as most tanks should be close to the soft-cap (or aiming for it) and thus 100 over soft-cap will be irrelevant and since guard is shared from the tank to everyone around them, the 100 for raid members is also dilute.

    Anthem of Glory will not be changed as it will mean changes in BM, Oracle, and Archon as well since they all share a similar buff that overwrites each other. It is a staple buff and is scaled accordingly to how much of a gain a support can provide defensively in raid and bosses are tuned around this. So changing this specific buff will require remodeling a lot of aspects of the game.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 03-31-2015 at 09:33 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Ailene's Avatar
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    Verse of Captivation - maybe not the most useful ability, but it's been used in raid and it's quite handy in PvP. I think I'm fine with your suggestion to add an interrupt, but only if you don't add a cooldown to the mez. Being able to mez again straight away if someone breaks it, is very needed for when you actually use it in a raid setting.

    Verse of Purity - I'm not really sure what you mean here. I haven't found anything it fails to cleanse that it is supposed to cleanse. Anything other classes can cleanse, Bard can too. If you've found something, you should report it, cause that would be a bug then. But, make sure that it's something that is meant to be cleansed.

    Or are you asking for it to remove debuffs that other classes/souls can't? Cause that would be changing boss mechanics.

    As for adding a purge to it (in my terms purge is something you do on the enemy, cleanse is something you do on your friends), sounds fine unless they make it like Archon's Cleansing Flames. Cleansing Flames can purge too if you spend points into it. However, it needs a target, which makes it an annoying ability. Ofc, being able to AoE purge 10 people with VoP and no target needed would be OP for PvP But, with Sicaron incoming, I'm not sure I want a purge in my cleanse. And if you make it an option (by spending points in it), we'd still be locked with it since we don't want to drop below 61 points in Bard. Could maybe work as a Mastery?

    Anthem of Glory - I agree that the buffs seem a bit low and that it should be adjusted to today's numbers. However, AoG is equal to other Support classes Armor/Resist buffs, so this is a change they need to do for all support classes then.

    And speaking of adjusting, Verse of Joy's Mana Regen could be looked at as well. What is 50 mana per second worth for a blue bar even?

    If there's one ability Bard has that is completely useless, it's Motif of Encouragement. But that ability has been there so long, and is so special, it would almost be sad if they removed it lol.

    All in all, I think they've done quite a well job with Bard to improve it. Though the change to Chord of Inspiration wasn't that much to cheer for. Would rather see Verse of Occlusion's cooldown reduced to at least 1 min

  4. #4
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailene View Post
    If there's one ability Bard has that is completely useless, it's Motif of Encouragement. But that ability has been there so long, and is so special, it would almost be sad if they removed it lol.
    Don't you dare take away my squirrel army!

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    Ascendant Ailene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    Don't you dare take away my squirrel army!
    In a somewhat weird way, I don't want it to go either!

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailene View Post

    Verse of Purity - I'm not really sure what you mean here. I haven't found anything it fails to cleanse that it is supposed to cleanse. Anything other classes can cleanse, Bard can too. If you've found something, you should report it, cause that would be a bug then. But, make sure that it's something that is meant to be cleansed.

    Or are you asking for it to remove debuffs that other classes/souls can't? Cause that would be changing boss mechanics.

    As for adding a purge to it (in my terms purge is something you do on the enemy, cleanse is something you do on your friends), sounds fine unless they make it like Archon's Cleansing Flames. Cleansing Flames can purge too if you spend points into it. However, it needs a target, which makes it an annoying ability. Ofc, being able to AoE purge 10 people with VoP and no target needed would be OP for PvP But, with Sicaron incoming, I'm not sure I want a purge in my cleanse. And if you make it an option (by spending points in it), we'd still be locked with it since we don't want to drop below 61 points in Bard. Could maybe work as a Mastery?
    Sorry, here is what I posted in the OP.

    Verse of Purity:
    Currently Verse of Purity is as follows: Removes one curse, disease, or poison from up to 10 party or raid members every 3 seconds for 3 seconds.


    As many bards know, Verse of Purity does not work on harmful debuffs from NPCs the majority of the time. Instead of keeping the ability as it is, it would be great if it was changed to something such as: Removes a buff from up to 10 party or raid members every 3 seconds for 3 seconds.


    This would be a Bard's "Purge" but it would not be as powerful. The change would only allow the removal of a buff from members of the bard's raid. Purge removes buffs from players and NPCs as well as removing harmful buffs from friendly players. This skill would only remove harmful buffs from the bard's raid/party members.

    The PURGE that I used shouldn't be a purge, instead it should be a "cleanse." That was my mistake in wording.

    I was not trying to make it an overpowered ability in PVP. One of the encounters that comes to mind is the Bulf fight in Mount Sharax. I was told by everyone in my raid that Verse of Purity would not work with the cleanses and another class would have to do it. If this is wrong please let me know because I know nothing of other class cleanses and, if this is the case, then the whole argument of having a "cleanse" to take care of debuffs that other classes were doing is a moot point and the suggestion should be taken off the list.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched Vedryne's Avatar
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    Verse of Captivation - true, no use on a boss but Motif of Encouragement has even less use all around... You can take the 20m range interrupt from bd offsoul, by sacrificing some dps (and hps) output. I think it's fair that you need to trade something to get more utility, though I'd preffer an interrupt that doesn't require melee weapon to be available to reach in an offsoul. And with reavers and inqs usually there's no issue of lack of interrupt-capable chars. But, ofc, free interrupt never hurts

    Verse of Purity - haven't encountered any issues other than when some debuffs require st cleansing (very rarely). It's an aoe cleanse as in any other class or spec (read up the descriptions in, for instance, rift magelo, you'll see that all tooltips say the same). And works fine on Bulf.

    Anthem of Glory - while I like the % idea, this will make AP stacking much more of a necessity for a bard than it is now. In such case you won't be able to put a cp-capped dpser to bard as you'll want your bard to have a special heal/bard-orientated AP gear set. I'm not really keen on limiting choices.
    Furthermore, currently in most raids you have chloro (=reduced mana cost), harbarchon (=anthem of glory version; though I think sc/archons don't reach this buff), bard/oracle (=movement speed) ->> all three anthems covered. If you'll want to use bard for Anthem of Glory, then you'll want an archon to take and use spark shower (when I think sc/archon could take 4% SP instead).
    I do agree with it being a kinda weak buff, but the numbers should be increased for all classes on corresponding buffs.

    And yes, VoJ and VoO have been yearning for love for quite a while ;) Though I'd like to see not reduction of cd but the numbers go up; and I still want all points in bard that directly increase healing to affect absorption as well.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Question Seriously?

    Bard > Oracle > Archon > Beastmaster
    (or Archon > Oracle, never usually see people compare them anyway)

    My point here is that the Bard is currently the best support in game. You're asking for buffs for a soul that doesn't need it, there are other support souls much, much worse off than the Bard.

    #buffbeastmaster

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    Plane Touched Vedryne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallig View Post
    Bard > Oracle > Archon > Beastmaster
    (or Archon > Oracle, never usually see people compare them anyway)

    My point here is that the Bard is currently the best support in game. You're asking for buffs for a soul that doesn't need it, there are other support souls much, much worse off than the Bard.

    #buffbeastmaster
    But but but look at the archon's dps, and they have it with lava field and flaring, and I can do it only if I sack orchestra

    But yeah, there's a support soul out there that requires much more attention...
    #buffBM

  10. #10
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallig View Post
    #buffbeastmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedryne View Post
    #buffBM
    BM can beat Archon in DPS (assuming limited target swaps), and it brings so much more to the table than archon does currently. I only say "can" instead of for sure is due to how much of BM's utility comes into play (Purge, Sleep, Interrupt, Defensive CDs).

    BM is fine. Anything to its kit will push it to the OP end. The only change I can see is the damage on builder and finisher (vicious/brutal strike) scales off of BM DoTs in play (to a cap) no matter on what mob they are on.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 04-01-2015 at 10:51 PM.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser snipebad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    Don't you dare take away my squirrel army!
    To bad they can't make it passive and make it work on group members too.


    Verse of Captivation-I agree with most things said about this. But they would have to add a debuff to the actual Interrupt so you could mez nonstop. And You wouldn't have to spec into BD to pick it up.

    Anthem of Glory-it is low Maybe make it % base with a max limit.

    Verse of Joy-How many times has then been talk about... mana increase!

    Verse of Occlusion's-yes, reduce the CD or Increase the shield. (Or just make it a brez and call it a day. )

    Power Chord-adds a debuff to the target that gives +5% crit hit. (wont stack with similar buff like Lethal Poison)

    Chord Inspiration-an increase to the shield part (around 20%?)

    I wish they didn't make Oracle and Bard buffs a mirror image of each other, A better separation would have been nice. Similar to BM and archon similar but different in many ways.

    Before they make any changes to bard I would like changes to Tactician first pls.
    Last edited by snipebad; 04-01-2015 at 11:38 PM.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Vedryne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    BM can beat Archon in DPS (assuming limited target swaps), and it brings so much more to the table than archon does currently. I only say "can" instead of for sure is due to how much of BM's utility comes into play (Purge, Sleep, Interrupt, Defensive CDs).

    BM is fine. Anything to its kit will push it to the OP end. The only change I can see is the damage on builder and finisher (vicious/brutal strike) scales off of BM DoTs in play (to a cap) no matter on what mob they are on.
    Maybe with higher gear BM scales better than archon, don't know about that. Target switching is required at least on some bosses, especially if your raid isn't overgeared for the dps checks.
    But I'd still assume you're talking about 48BM and not 58, which does not provide the crit buff (that even sub40 archons do). Bard saves up some finishers for dps instead of debuffing, when paired up with archon instead of BM.
    I do value BM for it's defensive cds but they aren't needed everywhere... And yes, enrage stacks up nicely with orchestra+command to attack but in archon's case you can cover most of flaring with lava field and orchestra. I'm still not sure which variant gives better boost, so if anyone has data on it, please share.
    Purging is BM's specialty but, well, current mechanics don't require it that much. And in NMRs, where purge is needed, BM's dps is preeetty poor due to obvious reasons.
    Anyways, in my eyes, there are niche fights where BM pulls it's weight but overall - no.

    Tell me honestly, who do you use in raids for support, archon or BM?

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Vedryne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snipebad View Post
    To bad they can't make it passive and make it work on group members too.
    Mark yourself a squirrel and shout on TS "staaaack", that's how it works ))

  14. #14
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedryne View Post
    Maybe with higher gear BM scales better than archon, don't know about that. Target switching is required at least on some bosses, especially if your raid isn't overgeared for the dps checks.
    But I'd still assume you're talking about 48BM and not 58, which does not provide the crit buff (that even sub40 archons do). Bard saves up some finishers for dps instead of debuffing, when paired up with archon instead of BM.
    I do value BM for it's defensive cds but they aren't needed everywhere... And yes, enrage stacks up nicely with orchestra+command to attack but in archon's case you can cover most of flaring with lava field and orchestra. I'm still not sure which variant gives better boost, so if anyone has data on it, please share.
    Purging is BM's specialty but, well, current mechanics don't require it that much. And in NMRs, where purge is needed, BM's dps is preeetty poor due to obvious reasons.
    Anyways, in my eyes, there are niche fights where BM pulls it's weight but overall - no.
    I'll work backwards.

    We use both (so the 5% crit debuff is covered) and I am sure in HK, you will need both to meet the DPS checks (BM more than archon if it comes to that). For progression, we used BM for all fights except Izkinra, and Crucia. And since off-progression, we let the warriors play whatever they want (BM is only done on Jino, Yrwl, and Pumpkin at the moment).

    I have BM-ed for all fights many times, and now exclusively BM Pumpkin as a challenge (another warrior BMs for MS), and BM in 10-man for all fights.

    In other words, BM is viable on every raid fight and should be used assuming you have a competent BM. They need to be able to pull the min-maxed DPS (+/- 2%) otherwise it won't be worth it (Archon is much simpler to perform in a raid setting). The reason BM is not used is partly because of the misconception that BM cannot function well in a raid setting, while it is actually because many warriors (these days) cannot handle disconnects without the comfort of Reaver or Shock Pulse/Skyfall and thus let their DPS plummet providing the false data of its ineffectiveness.

    Purge will be important for HK *grins*, hello Sicaron - oh how I missed you.

    BM Defensive CDs have value, but you are right, utilization is rather niche. However there are raid strats for a few raid bosses that hinge on these CDs (I am looking at you 3:07 Jino).

    The issue with Lava Field is its a GTAE, and people have to stand in it. This works on most bosses but some it does not (Pumpkin, Crucia). Enrage affects its globally, and is exclusive (Does not overrwrite Orchestra). Having Flaring+Enrage+Orchestra+WG during your burst (since almost every spec of the current meta hinges on burst CDs) is better than Flaring+Orchestra+WG and then Lava Field during downtime.
    * Again having both is better, but this discussion is one over the other.

    Finally, yes 48 BM. 58 BM is not a large DPS loss, but we archon with BM so I never went that route. I am not entirely sure of the bard end of the deal, but as far as I know the DPS they lose for debuffing is minor (that and I have never heard our bard complain ).

    In effect, the most recent parse, I have 97k on Jino in Paragon (though I got lucky with Reaver and ended at 107k on one parse, 62% crit on VS ftw), while my highest was 83k in BM (and 73k on Pumpkin). That is a 14% difference between the top melee spec and 48 BM. I am not entirely too sure of the best archon parses, but I have usually met or surpassed our archon.

    and only lost a few times cause Amuse gets all the help *grumbles*

    We already have Reaver, we do not need another OP jack-in-one soul .
    Last edited by Solaxys; 04-02-2015 at 12:19 AM.

  15. #15
    Telaran Kotlet's Avatar
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    ty Solaxys for the answer, did not expect to find something interesting in rogue discussions :P .

    Wouldn't it be better to use 58Bm+22archon instead of 48BM+normal archon? If you use both.

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