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Thread: MM...and AP Questions...

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    Plane Touched Sylvermoon's Avatar
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    Cool MM...and AP Questions...

    So...I finally got my Rogue at 1k hit and a 4 pc crystal set. I have about 6k Dex, and yet I only have about 7800 AP...yes, I've been stacking Crit (only at around 2100 or so atm). My question is, should I be worried at only having that much AP? Should I be stacking AP instead? Should I be using AP runes instead of Dex runes on my weapons?

    Does Dex not give as much AP as say Wis gives a cleric their SP? Asking as my main is a cleric and she has about 8k wis (I think, I'm at work and I can't check to make sure) and 14 to 15k SP (stacked CP as well) so not sure if Dex gives less AP ratio-wise.

    Also...I play mostly MM these days, with those stats, how much should I be parsing for? Haven't raided on Rogue yet, so not sure how much I should be seeing.

    Oh and are the MM bow animations supposed to be slower than Rangers'? I seem to have a lot of bow-pulling animations (but not releasing) when I hit my skills. Not sure what's affecting this and makes for lower dps.

    Thanks for your answers.
    Last edited by Sylvermoon; 03-21-2015 at 12:19 PM.
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    Ascendant Crithappens's Avatar
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    Dex runes for weapons over AP runes.

    Warriors/Rogues have less Attack Power than Mages/Clerics have Spell Power. This is intended. Warrior/Rogue get some scaling from Weapon Damage. Mages/Clerics are compensated for this by their weapons having large bonuses to Spell Power on them.

    Not sure what you're talking about with animations. Marksman and Ranger use the same animations at the same speed.
    Last edited by Crithappens; 03-21-2015 at 12:26 PM.
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    Plane Touched Sylvermoon's Avatar
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    Ah I see, ok, thanks. I already have Dex on my weaps, but wasn't sure.

    As far as animations, like I said, she stand there holding her bow in the firing position for a while when I hit my skill button, and yet doesn't fire. I have to tap the skill again sometimes for her to actually release the bow. I don't seem to have this "lag" when I play as Ranger though, that's why I was wondering if MM's have different/slwoer animations when pulling their bow.

    Could just be me, I dunno. :/
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    Prophet of Telara
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    worth mentioning that mm benefits a lot from high crit power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvermoon View Post
    So...I finally got my Rogue at 1k hit and a 4 pc crystal set. I have about 6k Dex, and yet I only have about 7800 AP...yes, I've been stacking Crit (only at around 2100 or so atm). My question is, should I be worried at only having that much AP? Should I be stacking AP instead? Should I be using AP runes instead of Dex runes on my weapons?

    Does Dex not give as much AP as say Wis gives a cleric their SP? Asking as my main is a cleric and she has about 8k wis (I think, I'm at work and I can't check to make sure) and 14 to 15k SP (stacked CP as well) so not sure if Dex gives less AP ratio-wise.

    Also...I play mostly MM these days, with those stats, how much should I be parsing for? Haven't raided on Rogue yet, so not sure how much I should be seeing.

    Oh and are the MM bow animations supposed to be slower than Rangers'? I seem to have a lot of bow-pulling animations (but not releasing) when I hit my skills. Not sure what's affecting this and makes for lower dps.

    Thanks for your answers.
    Hi

    In general MM is an OK spec. It has a lot of shortcomings though, some of which you are already noticing such as the skills not going off when you hit the buttons as compared with other specs and/or other callings. This all comes from very poor design, when it was up on PTS, there were only select few people that were basically allowed to "work" on it, and they werent very good at it, they only cared exclusively how it performs in top end raids and not most practical situations and tested it for most part exclusively in the foundry without any thought for things such as general longterm smoothness of gameplay, ergonomics, etc. Another words, it was made by the top 5% of amateurs, for the top 5% of amateurs. I still can't believe the dev in charge actually went with it.

    Back to the matter at hand, yes, it does that and it causes problems, the buttons don't go off the longer you play. There are still some minor memory leaks somewhere within this game etc. or issues which cause this particular spec to behave in such a way. If you do a raid or few for several hours, you will notice a continuous steady performance decrease and your skills will become more and more delayed and require more and more of this "double tapping" which you are talking about, sometimes even "triple tapping".

    In addition, skills which are supposed to be "Instant - No Global Cooldown", in particular Bull's Eye and Energy Manipulation do cause a full scale GCD to go off as you continue to play within same session.

    This all will of course amount to and cause your DPS to vastly suffer, when these things start happening you will lose the 1 second timewindow to get your SB off on the BE block vast majority of the time as well as your rotations in general being inacurate, you will often go over 5 CP, occasionally under once you start trying to compensate for these bugs / design flaws to further degrade your DPS output even more.

    The 1 sec BE timewindow + clunky shot are among some of the worst mechanics ever designed in any decent MMO to the point where it has me personally seriously regretting making rogue as my main. If I knew they were going to come out with crap like this I would have stayed away from it, but its too late now because, gear grind .... I am indeed thinking about quitting this game over it cause it has me thinking about what else they are going to **** up like this.

    As far your AP goes, I think you are OK in your personal progression, a bit low on dex. As mentioned above, because we get weapon scaling we get lower reqs vs spellpower classes to achieve equivalent numbers.

    For MM spec, the stat hierarchy should be roughly, and I emphasize roughly, something like this:

    1. Ranged weapon DPS
    2. CP up to 40% ish (maybe more or less depending rest of your set-up, raid comp etc.)
    3. Dex
    4. AP
    5. PC

    If you are around 35% ish on CP and you have very low AP/Dex, then maybe focus on your next 2-3 item upgrades to be Dex / AP based. if your AP is too low then your crits will of course be lower as well. I tried to keep mine somewhat rounded when I was on the road to the 40%, it gave me better results, as not all specs are crit based and I use a lot of specs. Eventually, you will end up swapping couple gear pieces for different specs, but you are not there yet so your best bet is to try keep it rounded like that.

    if it isn't too late for you, I strongly recommend playing an inquis or war over this, paragon hands down smoother and better (and has more utility) then most if not all rogue mellee specs, and reaver / inquis still play better then MM since they dont suffer from the "having to double or triple tap" your buttons and 1 sec BE timewindow + clunky shot mechanics. Shaman is also going to be buffed, and the dev in charge of that seems a lot better then ours, so clerics melee will be better too.
    Last edited by Shouku; 03-25-2015 at 07:41 AM.

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    Plane Touched Sylvermoon's Avatar
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    @ Shouku - Yeah my main is a cleric and being Inq/Puri kind of gets old and boring so wanted to make my Rogue better and gear it up so I could play on her too. And yeah, I've been working on my nb/assassin....melee scares me tho lol >.>

    And yeah, looking forward to what Shammy will be like soon.

    Thanks for the confirmation about double/triple tapping, seems what happens for me and end up missing or over compensating builders. Would relogging every hour or so fix this you think?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvermoon View Post
    @ Shouku - Yeah my main is a cleric and being Inq/Puri kind of gets old and boring so wanted to make my Rogue better and gear it up so I could play on her too. And yeah, I've been working on my nb/assassin....melee scares me tho lol >.>

    And yeah, looking forward to what Shammy will be like soon.

    Thanks for the confirmation about double/triple tapping, seems what happens for me and end up missing or over compensating builders. Would relogging every hour or so fix this you think?
    When it happens to me it is usually around half hour to an hour into a raid or non-stop combat. then it continues, it is persistant and does not go away until I completely exit the game client, shut it down, give it like 20 secs and restart.

    needless to say that unfortunately due to speed pulls most of the time I do not have this luxury thus leaving me high an dry.

    At the same time thats when the No-GCD skills start triggering full GCDs. Its bad. Between the 2 I can drop by around 15-20k DPS, pulling around 70k+ from my regular 90-100k (more pending raid CDs) on some encounters. Other fights less, but the ones where I sit at around comfy 100k+ are very easy for me to tell cause of the nice round number.

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    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shouku View Post
    When it happens to me it is usually around half hour to an hour into a raid or non-stop combat. then it continues, it is persistant and does not go away until I completely exit the game client, shut it down, give it like 20 secs and restart.

    needless to say that unfortunately due to speed pulls most of the time I do not have this luxury thus leaving me high an dry.

    At the same time thats when the No-GCD skills start triggering full GCDs. Its bad. Between the 2 I can drop by around 15-20k DPS, pulling around 70k+ from my regular 90-100k (more pending raid CDs) on some encounters. Other fights less, but the ones where I sit at around comfy 100k+ are very easy for me to tell cause of the nice round number.
    If you use the off gcd abilities outside of macros during a gcd, you won't have that problem anymore


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    What is the benefit of Dex over AP for weapon runes? I don't understand why it's better in that one slot?

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    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cladari View Post
    What is the benefit of Dex over AP for weapon runes? I don't understand why it's better in that one slot?
    In very simple terms:

    1 dex gives 0.75 AP and 0.5 physical crit. 103 Dex= 77 AP and 51 physical crit, the AP one gives 84 AP, 51 phys crit > 7 AP


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    Example:

    Exquisite Rage Weapon-Rune = 84 AP.

    Exquisite Weapon-Rune of Dexterity = 103 Dex/77.25 AP, 51.5 PC.

    51.5 PC > 6.75 AP.

    Edit: Above post beat me to it.
    Last edited by Nebucent; 03-27-2015 at 03:13 PM.

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    So you are saying 51.5 PC is worth more than 7 AP, dps wise. OK thanks.

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    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cladari View Post
    So you are saying 51.5 PC is worth more than 7 AP, dps wise. OK thanks.
    Yeah, 1 AP=0.35/0.4 phys crit or something, don't know the exact weighting


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    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeOranges View Post
    If you use the off gcd abilities outside of macros during a gcd, you won't have that problem anymore
    been there done that, the whole clunky shot seperation + seperate cooldowns button for raid CDs. didnt make much difference.

    also, regardless of wether its located within or outside of macro, are off GCD abilities supposed to trigger GCDs ? or are they not supposed to do that ? so these particular abilities are supposed to trigger GCDs when used within macros with others even though they state they don't use any GCDs ?

    can we get a dev response for clarification on this ?

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    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shouku View Post
    been there done that, the whole clunky shot seperation + seperate cooldowns button for raid CDs. didnt make much difference.

    also, regardless of wether its located within or outside of macro, are off GCD abilities supposed to trigger GCDs ? or are they not supposed to do that ? so these particular abilities are supposed to trigger GCDs when used within macros with others even though they state they don't use any GCDs ?

    can we get a dev response for clarification on this ?
    Ofcourse it's not SUPPOSED to happen, but it does, i'm just suggesting a way of dealing with it that works. Can't trigger a gcd if you're already on a gcd

    Edit: It doesn't even trigger a gcd, it delays the use of the next ability by a tiny bit making things feel sluggish
    Last edited by ILikeOranges; 03-28-2015 at 04:21 PM.


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