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Thread: Something i noticed, Skillwise... Assassin Vs Blade dancer

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    Default Something i noticed, Skillwise... Assassin Vs Blade dancer

    Ok, so the 2 skills in question are:

    Assassin: Poison Gas (44 points required)
    20 energy
    Cooldown: 2 minutes
    Effect: Enemies in 7m radius are confused for 6 seconds.

    ---- VS ----

    Blade dancer: Mass Subdue (38 points required)
    20 energy
    Cooldown: 25 seconds
    Effect: Enemies in 7m radius are incapacitated for 5 seconds.


    .... Now look at those, and let it sink in for a moment....

    WAIT WHAT?!

    Over a time scale of 2 minutes, the dancer will be able to cast mass subdue ALMOST 5 times (only 5 seconds off!) in which time an assassin can cast his ONCE!

    The assassins also requires a HIGHER point investment.

    So over 2 minutes: Assassin: 6 seconds of CC vs Blade Dancer: 25 seconds of CC (assuming the 5th since its so close)


    Something about this cannot be right. Why did assassins get a mirror copied move, MASSIVELY NERFED in comparison, AND it requires higher points to get?

    But either way, to go more specific into assassins... they kinda get massively jipped for their last 3 skills anyways. its basically crap, crappier, and maeh whereas other classes get AMAZING things at their highest tier. (Like blade dancer.... a WAY better CC, an 8s stun/root/snare immunity!!!!!, a +20% crit + NO ENERGY COSTS buff for 21 seconds) vs assassins (Poison that makes mana costs 25% higher, a HORRIBLE cc, and a move that makes it so you won't be knocked out of stealth for 15 seconds if you get hit....which is decent, but FIFTY ONE POINTS GOOD?!... hell no!)

    I guess this is a bit of a direct comparison/Assassin rant, but maeh, it's also meant to be a discussion on the problems of speccing heavily into assassin tree....not to mention you have to get the horrible poison talents in order to even go 44 or 51 points deep.

    Edit for clarification: I am not trying to directly compare the assassin to the blade dancer, i am simply using it as an example of how good the skills are vs the assassins skill set. I'm not trying to say "zomg i want blade dancer skills on assassin!" I'm just saying that i feel like the 3 top end moves (and the poison talents for that matter) for assassin's could use a serious review/critiquing and possibly a once over to make investing heavily into assassin more of a choice (Personally i wanted to go 51 assassin/15 infiltrator/0 Riftstalker for PVP...but with the current state of high end assassin...not going to happen)
    Last edited by Bloodytrailz; 01-31-2011 at 10:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodytrailz View Post
    Ok, so the 2 skills in question are:

    Assassin: Poison Gas (44 points required)
    20 energy
    Cooldown: 2 minutes
    Effect: Enemies in 7m radius are confused for 6 seconds.

    ---- VS ----

    Blade dancer: Mass Subdue (38 points required)
    20 energy
    Cooldown: 25 seconds
    Effect: Enemies in 7m radius are incapacitated for 5 seconds.


    .... Now look at those, and let it sink in for a moment....

    WAIT WHAT?!

    Over a time scale of 2 minutes, the dancer will be able to cast mass subdue ALMOST 5 times (only 5 seconds off!) in which time an assassin can cast his ONCE!

    The assassins also requires a HIGHER point investment.

    So over 2 minutes: Assassin: 6 seconds of CC vs Blade Dancer: 25 seconds of CC (assuming the 5th since its so close)


    Something about this cannot be right. Why did assassins get a mirror copied move, MASSIVELY NERFED in comparison, AND it requires higher points to get?

    But either way, to go more specific into assassins... they kinda get massively jipped for their last 3 skills anyways. its basically crap, crappier, and maeh whereas other classes get AMAZING things at their highest tier. (Like blade dancer.... a WAY better CC, an 8s stun/root/snare immunity!!!!!, a +20% crit + NO ENERGY COSTS buff for 21 seconds) vs assassins (Poison that makes mana costs 25% higher, a HORRIBLE cc, and a move that makes it so you won't be knocked out of stealth for 15 seconds if you get hit....which is decent, but FIFTY ONE POINTS GOOD?!... hell no!)

    I guess this is a bit of a direct comparison/Assassin rant, but maeh, it's also meant to be a discussion on the problems of speccing heavily into assassin tree....not to mention you have to get the horrible poison talents in order to even go 44 or 51 points deep.
    I think part of the point is that the BD ability can be blocked, parried or dodged, it is a melee attack, the gas can't. Also when they do stuff like this its often basing he cost on everything the class brings. Comparing 1 ability to 1 other ability usually fails.

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    Telaran Scayth's Avatar
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    Ya know what else fails? Quoting the entire page long post directly above yours...

    /facepalm

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    Not every soul can do everything equally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I think part of the point is that the BD ability can be blocked, parried or dodged, it is a melee attack, the gas can't. Also when they do stuff like this its often basing he cost on everything the class brings. Comparing 1 ability to 1 other ability usually fails.
    You make a good point on the blocking/dodging part, but does that justify the fact that they can use it 5x more often and require 6 less points to acquire?

    However i disagree on the fact that 1 skill can't be compared to another when they are literally the exact same thing, it's not like they perform different functions or anything (IE: Comparing a frostbolt vs a firebolt, one might be stronger, but they both obviously perform different functions), they are a literal carbon copy of one another

    Also edited the original post to more clearly state my intentions of the post
    Last edited by Bloodytrailz; 01-31-2011 at 10:59 PM.

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    Plane Touched bvkroll's Avatar
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    Assassins are a different class. I'm sure some things will have to changed and balanced a little bit before release. Also You can get both.

    I think the Bladedancer is more for pairing with Riftstalker for tanking purposes. I suppose you can try it with other builds if you want.
    Last edited by bvkroll; 01-31-2011 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bvkroll View Post
    Assassins are a different class. I'm sure some things will have to changed and balanced a little bit before release. Also You can get both.

    I think the Bladedancer is more for pairing with Riftstalker for tanking purposes. I suppose you can try it with other builds if you want.
    Blade dancer is an interesting class in and of itself.

    It has sort of 2 distinct roles of DPS/dps boosting/DPS utilities and Tanking/tank boosting


    When you look at the talent trees/skills you will see the disparity

    DPS/utility side: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M_V_..VV0Vzsoo
    By going 22 points deep you get quite a lot of DPS/utility boosters.
    (By going 26 deep, you also pick up a stun that can't miss + a disarm as well!)

    Skill wise:
    +Dex raidwide buff (Crit %/Attack Power/Dodge)
    +5% crit raidwide buff, finisher move
    +30% damage buff
    +50% dodge buff
    +Sprint buff
    +Charge skill
    +Ranged interrupt that can silence
    +Twin Strike/Compount Attack (The ability to AoE up to 3 targets)

    Passively:
    +5% chance to hit
    +20% auto attack damage
    +15% dexterity
    +15 energy on 5pt finishers (effectively making a 5pt finisher cost almost no energy)


    Or on the flip side of things, you can go for the tank/tank support style: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0MMV_..g0dVzkR0M


    All the active skills listed above as well as making use of:
    False blade (5% dodge 6% parry)
    Reprisal (Non GCD hit, 10 energy for 1 combo point)
    A riposte hit everytime you dodge


    So really, blade dancer is a very interesting mesh of tank meets rogue, which i think is pretty cool for a class (but i'm still more drawn to the assassin xD)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodytrailz View Post
    Edit for clarification: I am not trying to directly compare the assassin to the blade dancer, i am simply using it as an example of how good the skills are vs the assassins skill set.
    That is comparing. But there's nothing wrong with that.

    Maybe Blade Dancers are meant to have better cc than Assassins, though it does seem like a pretty big difference. But I think we need to see level 50 characters in action before asking for any changes. Still, I agree that from our point of view at the moment, the end level Assassin skills seem underwhelming.
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    Did you notice the 4 sec stun that awards 2 combo points assassins get at 16 skill points (assuming up to date soul tree calculators)?

    Assassins are more designed more for single target combat/ hit and run play style. Bladedancer seems to be more for fighting multiple target/survivability.

    Souls should be compared by how well they fill a role not by their individual abilities.

  10. #10
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    Ok, i feel like i may need to explain this further.... the original post is meant to be 2 different parts really.


    Part A) The direct comparison between 2 skills that are pretty much the exact same, but seem kind of askew to me

    Part B) Showcasing the assassin's less than appealing high end skills, using the blade dancer AS AN EXAMPLE (NOT a comparison) What i mean by this is that I am simply showing how the top end blade dancer skills are all very good FOR THAT SOUL. And how that the assassins skills towards the assassins job, is kind of weak.

    Poison that increases mana cost by 25%
    -Hmm...well an assassin is usually all about burst damage or relatively quick kills, so having something that takes it effect over a long course of time (aka: the time it takes them to actually run out of mana with that 25% increase on costs) is extremely counter productive to the assassin class.

    AoE CC for 6s on a 2m cooldown
    - This skill is good, but comparing it to the blade dancers similar skill, i have to wonder why the cooldown is so ridiculously high. (If the cooldown were cut by 50-60% I would be happy with this move, 45s-1m cooldown)

    Damage taken while stealth causes stealth to drop after 15 seconds.
    - Cool ability, it's got a good number of potential uses such as walking right past a tank or battle line, remaining in stealth and then showing up behind the mages/clerics, etc etc. This ability I feel is pretty good, however... I do not feel like this is 51 points good. Especially when you look at just about any other classes 51 point abilitys that are usually ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.


    So really, if something like this were to happen:

    51 point ability moved to the 38 point ability (the 38 point ability removed completely)
    A new 51 point ability (I have nothing specific in mind, but i would love to see an AoE or single target incoming healing reduction) < and yes i know about Anathema (the infiltrator single target heal reduction)... but from the wording, that sounds like it's outgoing healing.
    AoE CC cooldown reduced

    I would feel pretty good about the high end options. But as they stand now, I don't see ANYONE going heavy into assassin. (And it's been backed up so far by every assassin main build I've personally seen posted is never higher than like 32-36 points)
    Last edited by Bloodytrailz; 02-01-2011 at 12:38 AM.

  11. #11
    General of Telara Relair's Avatar
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    I think they perform different functions for each soul. Bladedancer can be alot more utility focused than assassin, and it's meant to be part of their main repertoire. For assassins its more of an 'oh sh*t' button so they can escape a crowd. At least thats how I took it anyway. But you failed to note you can just be an assassin/BD and get both if you want, they have different effects so they probably dont share diminishing returns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scayth View Post
    Ya know what else fails? Quoting the entire page long post directly above yours...

    /facepalm
    Trolling is of course not failing...

    So Confuse vs Incapacitate... Incap is a 'take damage, it's broken' correct? What about Confuse? Is it basically a stun (loss of control, and can still take damage)...

    -Skane

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    As the above poster said: you can still hit a CONFUSED target for the full duration of the debuff, even if beeing a target of confusion I do not know what are its effects in pvp. On the other side INCAPACITATE makes the target STOPPING ACTING till he takes any damage.
    It is an amazing skill and in pvp it is almost godly for its 25 secs CD, but a simple mindless aoe can make it useless.

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    If thats so then confusion is pretty amazing, maybe even more amazing than the incapacitate skill. Longer cd yes, more expensive in points yes, but basicly then it's another 6 sec stun on your target and the immediate surrounding!

    Also if incapacitate breaks on damage its way less useful in 1vs1 pvp. Especially if it can be countered with anti-snare skills while confusion cant?...

    Anyone's got some more insights on this?... incapacitate=snare??... confusion=stun???
    Last edited by Bartolomeus D; 02-01-2011 at 05:15 AM.
    Bajdovan - Rogue

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    Plane Touched Warrender's Avatar
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    What's the point of having different souls if you want everything the same?

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