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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: New Soul Feedback - Physician

  1. #436
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemrud View Post
    You do not know me, you didn't play with me, you're just making assumptions & feeling better. Say what you will. WFs are made of teams. What you are saying is, my inability to play Rift spreads as I join one & soon everyone in that WF is infected by my lack of skill. Suddenly they all become incompetent, therefore can't down a certain soul. Maybe it even spreads internet-wide! Checking the PvP forums, I see many people infected by my disease of lacking skill. My disease must be the reason why there's like six active threads full of petitions going against Physician's current state.

    Please...
    Nope. First I am using the following facts. 1. A debilitated Phys can not heal. 2. A physician keeping himself alive under a sustained burn isn't doing crap for his team...no one else is being healed etc. Hence your analysis is flawed on its face.

    Next I do not assume anything about you. You said...

    We're just bad in a game that can be toned down to 3 hotkeys
    Now clearly the bit about you being bad is sarcastic but here and on the PvP forums you have consistently talked about how this game is simple at it's base and in this case "can be toned down to 3 hotkeys."

    Additionally you said...

    Exact builds to counter a Physician
    Well all you need to counter Phys is debilitate. Yeah this is hard. Example today in CQ. Yes...once I was "immortal"....not once did one of the idiot debilitate me. I also died once to two people in about 4 seconds...I saw debilitate flash on my screen. Yeah using debilitate is hard. You should NEVER 1 or even 2v1 be able to burn down a tank healer focused only on keeping themselves alive unless you CC.. Ever if you can then healing in MMO PvP is broken...period

    And yes many of the PvPers in this game lack skill. They have whined about healing and CC since day one because purging and CCing healers is hard and healers curing is hard. In essence they have fought to have the things that add another layer of challenge in MMO PvP removed as much as possible so they can play CoD with swords and lightning bolts. In essence they want thought, planning and coordination removed...so yeah...bad applies.
    Last edited by Galibier; 06-03-2014 at 01:04 PM.
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  2. #437
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    There's a lot of talk about good dps being able to kill physicians just fine, and bad dps not being able to kill them, and since there aren't many people who can pressure a healer in rift either as a rogue or a cleric as well as I can, and as someone who has played physician enough to understand the soul, I'm gonna give you my perspective on the differences between trying to kill a cleric vs killing a physician as both a cleric and a rogue.

    As a rogue (sin in particular) I rely on drains and constant dps pressure, and as a cleric I rely on shaman burst cooldowns to get those kills.

    I'm doing this because I honestly don't think half the people in this thread have the first ****ing clue what they're talking about and I'm getting tired of reading the nonsense arguments people bring up without actually providing legitimate experience or numbers to support any of their claims.

    The first difference you'll notice when attacking a physician is the shields. It isn't necessarily the HPS output or how well they're able to heal themselves, but how effective the shields are at keeping their HP bar above a certain threshold. The threshold I'm talking about is the point at which your cooldowns come up, you time them well, and you're able to debilitate them and burst them down so their bar actually hits 0% and they die.

    As an assassin, this threshold is a lot less important due to the drain, but it's still there, and when they're low on mana, Poison Malice comes up, you just restarted your bleed rotation, and you're coming up on a finisher combined with serpent, that's when you stun, hit poison malice, drop final blow/serpent/shadow assault (in my case) and blow through their HP bar with enough steady dps while draining the last bit or so much that they can only cast one or two more heals and finally break through that hps wall to get the kill. This is generally only the case for really tough sents or defilers--other ones can pretty much just be pressured down with raw dps and a well-timed stun before they're drained.

    As a shaman, this threshold is really the only way you're going to be able to get kills on the aforementioned tough sent/defiler/chloro, but it's extremely effective due to the stun and huge incoming burst dps, which is 22-25k in 3 seconds, more afterwards with forced crits as you blow through ROTN stacks.

    Even a purifier has to channel and can be interrupted, can be drained, and can be stunned/confused which also works well as an interrupt for long channels.

    Supportive care is/was the main culprit (and it's being nerfed now, rightly so) in making this threshold so hard to reach, mainly due to how often it can proc (every time a physician heals, or every second if casting active and expectant on cooldown), and the fact that it stacks with all other physician shields.

    Supportive care by itself procs around an 800hp shield every second. This means that a physician running around casting instant heals on himself is keeping his HP bar that much higher every single second that he casts active treatment on himself, and when you add in the expectant treatment, the physician is shielding himself for another 2,000 or so hitpoints after the valor reduction to healing. This gives us what amounts to a whopping ~1100hps of shielding alone with instantly casted heals that require no resource management whatsoever, and we haven't even included the healing from active treatment yet.

    1100hps by itself is about enough to completely mitigate the DPS of one average or above average player in PVP, and the last time I tested my DPS output with my assassin build, I was averaging out at about ~3500dps after 40-45 seconds or so. Now we can add in the HPS from active treatment, which also comes out to around ~1100 in PVP, and we've got 2200dps or the DPS of one very good DPS soul mitigated with the combined shielding and healing from what amounts to a self-casted buff and one spammable macro with active and expectant in it.

    If you ever wondered why you stick yourself to the *** of a physician, dps as well as you know you can, and watch his hp bar never drop below 90% or even come close to that threshold where you can start to think about using your cooldowns to get him to the point where he might actually die, this is why. We've got 1100hps of shields and 1100hps from one single target 1s gcd instant heal.

    If you don't think 2200hps is a lot, it's about as much as you'll ever see on your meters from the average sent or defiler (note I said average, not exceptional), and while a defiler has links and a sentinel has some really great cooldowns to throw out some very big burst HPS, we still have to consider their susceptibility to drains, interrupts, and purges.

    So what happens when you break through that 2000-2200hps output that lasts pretty much forever and their HP bar actually starts moving? Well, here's a list of things that might happen:

    -Urgent care
    -Massive Therapy
    -Maintenance Therapy (more absorbs lol)
    -Life Insurance
    -Emergency Response
    -Biofeedback
    -Intensive care
    -Curative Treatment

    Hope that clears things up a little!
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  3. #438
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    Ecru... I play both clerics and rogues in PvP. In terms of one or the other...I can say categorically that if I am running a ST healing Cleric I die mostly to OOM...if I get sloppy or CC'd. I die as a physician if I get CC/debilitated. The primary issue is the energy v mans mechanic. I can honestly say when I get CC'd and focused on either I am screwed....problem is few PvPers focus CC nowadays. For goodness sakes I have been focused by player I KNOW could debilitate by the damage I was taking but it never happened.

    Each has a strength and a weakness...tbh they are pretty balanced in that regard. IMO though there is no way in hell a single dpser even 2 should ever be able to kill a ST healer who chooses to just heal themselves.

    I do agree supportive care was an issue...but only if you feel a dpser should be able to kill a ST healer dedicated to healing themselves....really imo that should be an exercise in frustration. No if they could do something else while staying alive I could see an issue but that isn't the case.

    Also I don't know too many Phys who run the new 61 build. That is why I think these changes we have are largely about making the complainers say "yay they nerfed em!!!!" Because in all honesty these changes are not going to have a huge impact imo.

    Of the new souls Phys is the soul in least need of nerf in all honesty.
    Last edited by Galibier; 06-03-2014 at 08:46 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  4. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    [ wall of text ]
    Sorry I feel you missed something important when comparing Phys with other ST healers. While Phys could get more EHP from shields before the nerf and have access to more ST healing cds Sents get access to bonus break free, 40% dmg reduction for 10sec, AE sleep and ability which reset all his CDs except battle rez.

    This is something which Phys lack, that's why I could try to justify his EHP. Phys is simply a lot more vulnerable to CC.

    Puri is another story. Instead of absorp shield you get Sign of Faith after using ST healing / aborp which reduces dmg taken by 7% for 15sec. The biggest difference is that you cannot burn it out unlike the shield and it's less visible for casual pvper. If things go wrong you can always pop Flame of Life which heal, reduces dmg taken by 20% and increases dmg done by 5% for 6sec for 10 players. While 6sec isn't always enough survive the burst from 15sec dps abilities it affect 10 players which is very important in any medium scale pvp.
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    Supportive care by itself procs around an 800hp shield every second.
    Soz... first off, as I mentioned in a previous post it seems like an oversight that Supportive Care was put in in such a state where it could be used as a self-link to increase PvP survivability. I parsed a little bit with an eye for absorbs and was a little suprised by the size of SC's shields.

    If one were to be in all relic Myrmidon Dex/AP gear with matching PvP runes, all dream orbs Dex/AP, a sigil filled with AP essences, and the higher tier consumables it would end up being a 1200hp shield, or 1800hp on a crit. Now, it's a 50% shield so it will have clipping and it doesn't proc when forced to cleanse and whatnot, so in real situations the bottom line eHPS ends up around 300-500. That's still a lot for a largely passive ability, particularly if dealing with a single attacker.

    The other side would be how often Supportive Care procs when you are CC'd or forced to cleanse (it don't). Which adds to the current Achilles Heel nature of CC (or perhaps planting a beastmasta on a Phys like my guildies in an opposing premade liked to do). This does add up to a larger disparity between the pressure applied by 1 attacker with limited/no CC use, and that from a couple who use CC and perhaps look for the DR icon.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    As a shaman, this threshold is really the only way you're going to be able to get kills on the aforementioned tough sent/defiler/chloro, but it's extremely effective due to the stun and huge incoming burst dps, which is 22-25k in 3 seconds, more afterwards with forced crits as you blow through ROTN stacks.
    Hm, impressive. That's a pretty tight window for burst. There probably aren't a bunch folks and souls that can meet or exceed that kind of burst.

    But I think you've got an interest for hard data as I do, so here's some data from a bunch of folks and souls that can meet or exceed that kind of burst:

    Paragon: 3s burst 39,111 - 5s burst 50,524
    Spoiler!


    Shaman: 3s burst 28,145 - 5s burst 34,551 (that poor defiler)
    Spoiler!


    Nightblade: 3s burst 26,012 - 5s burst 32,005 (not viable buff NB)
    Spoiler!


    Assassin: 3s burst 23,164 - 6s burst 39,145
    Spoiler!


    Pyro: 3s burst 22,135 - 6s burst 32,954 (Double CD and FV? Very damage, much pro.)
    Spoiler!


    Bladedancer: 3s burst 21,316
    Spoiler!


    Oracle: 3s burst 17,379 - 6s burst 33,647
    Spoiler!


    Some Kind of Warlordful: 3s burst 15,134 - 6s burst 39,569
    Spoiler!


    Inquis: 3s burst 15,464 - 6s burst 27,451 (think you can get much higher but don't see many good Inquis)
    Spoiler!


    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Also I don't know too many Phys who run the new 61 build
    I dunno if there were a ton, but at least some players - including some of the most durable - ran 58 Phys or the RS hybrid.

  6. #441
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    ^^ not a lot of these are valid, i mean dancing steel for 4k? this doesn't happen in pvp unless someone is missing their entire focus. unless you're gear checking every single person or only counting what you're personally taking, there's no way to know if these parses include people at max valor or not.

    i can tell you that a massive blow over 8k generally (i have around 800cp) generally requires an undergeared target or 8+ targets within proximity to your actual target and using rotn/df immediately after rtl
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  7. #442
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    Default Vladd Physician seems to lack a niche and dps is the issue imo

    Please note this is regarding PvE, not PvP and it is about 61 Physician.

    I can see the point of Physician vs Puri (which I believe is supposed to be the analogue.) Yes the Puri brings more raw damage prevention but the Physician brings some better CD's and also imo a bit more consistent support for the whole of the raid as you can swap to doing some consistent support raid healing when the tank is not getting crushed. I kinda like that dynamic of swapping back and forth. I also Puri and that almost encourages tunnel visioning on the tank.

    The problem is these different traits will always be questionable so long as it's dps is so far in the gutter. I am not saying it needs to do Cloro levels of dps but you can do more dps as a sentinel simply putting a buff on your tank and then spamming heals. Liberator can at least say "yeah we do less dps than a warden BUT we are more effective in healing due to our tools and cooldowns. That's a fair trade right?"

    Are their any plans to look at this issue?
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  8. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I also Puri and that almost encourages tunnel visioning on the tank.
    Just wanted to clrrify that imo the Puri build and play style encourages tunnel visioning on the tank...vs Physician which feels more flexible and so you keep a broader vision.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  9. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i can tell you that a massive blow over 8k generally (i have around 800cp) generally requires an undergeared target or 8+ targets within proximity to your actual target and using rotn/df immediately after rtl
    Perhaps I should have added a sub-heading of "Studies through face tanking" as most - but not all - of those are from folks beating on me. The giant disparity in damage I received from people using the same classes were a good part of what pique my interest.

    It's funny you mention that item. I mean, how much supporting information could I possibly have?

    Well, in that particular case, enough of my guildies were PvPing one night that we formed up a couple of 5s. Twas streamed at the time, so fairly open. The shammy in the other 5 latched onto the defiler on mine pretty good. Greatest hits included:

    04:58:27: Jastere's Massive Blow critically hits Jyelle for 8837 Physical damage.
    05:00:43: Jastere's Massive Blow critically hits Jyelle for 7033 Physical damage. (1158 absorbed)
    05:00:45: Jastere's Massive Blow critically hits Jyelle for 7985 Physical damage.

    As it would happen, the latter two of those are from when we gave the ranked Black Garden a shot, since most folks hadn't yet tried it. It also so happens that the defiler was the one recording for a stream. To perhaps provide some clarity:

    New Soul Feedback - Physician-versus.jpg

    Done against a full PvP set and without relic pieces nor lockbox runes nor dream orbs.nor the bard/oracle buffs and debuffs nor even a vial. There's going to be a silly amount of burst if he does get fully geared out. Maybe I could convince him to start giving lessons?

    Anyway.

    Getting back to something more relevant to the thread, it was interesting how that match played out. We both ran a Physician healer and while they probably did have more DPS potential, we cleaned up.

    Their Physician had similar healing done and damage taken to mine (she's pretty good) and yet had 6 deaths to my 0. What happen? A large part of it was that we also had a Dominator on our side and stepping up the CC made an amount of difference that is difficult to overstate.

  10. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitnine View Post
    Attachment 18708

    Done against a full PvP set and without relic pieces nor lockbox runes nor dream orbs.nor the bard/oracle buffs and debuffs nor even a vial. There's going to be a silly amount of burst if he does get fully geared out. Maybe I could convince him to start giving lessons?
    if you anyone gets hit for anywhere close to 9k by a massive blow from a shaman who isn't even p90 then they were either debuffed, missing valor, or he got the damage bonus from rtl from a bunch of people around him. even with capped crit power i'm skeptical of the possibility of a 9k massive blow on a target not debuffed by ride the lightning as it would also probably require all other pieces of gear to have sp on them. if you got hit for anywhere close to 4k by any bladedancer aoe, you were not only missing your focus, but you were missing about five or six other pieces of gear too.

    you're not going to be able to reproduce these numbers in a duel vs targets in full myrm with full valor, period. there is no magic way that only your super special guildie managed to find to squeeze more damage out of rtl + rotn + deep freeze.

    i have 4531sp, 1671veng, and 711cp and an 8k massive blow which almost always comes after a rtl, is somewhat rare.
    Last edited by ecru; 06-04-2014 at 11:45 PM.
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  11. #446
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    Or maybe....just maybe u don't know as much as you think. Counter data with data man. Simple fiat statements sound a tad self serving and hollow. Especially when you mention "duels".

    From day 1 of Rift Betas is 2010 duels have meant CRAPPOLLA in Rift. It was about rock>paper>scissors and thanks to a certain TV show add Lizard>Spock to the mix. Get with it or get out. It's almost half a decade to get with the times.
    Last edited by Galibier; 06-05-2014 at 12:00 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  12. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Or maybe....just maybe u don't know as much as you think. Counter data with data man. Simple fiat statements sound a tad self serving and hollow. Especially when you mention "duels".

    From day 1 of Rift Betas is 2010 duels have meant CRAPPOLLA in Rift. It was about rock>paper>scissors and thanks to a certain TV show add Lizard>Spock to the mix. Get with it or get out. It's almost half a decade to get with the times.
    is there a better way to these things vs fully geared players when neither you or your target is buffed or debuffed by another player than in a duel? does valor and vengeance do something different when dueling vs when you're in a warfront?

    i kinda have to wonder what's going on here when you're trying to claim otherwise. is there a pvp dummy i'm unaware of? i already mentioned the bonus from RTL, are you even aware of that?

    i pvp as shaman pretty much exclusively now and mostly only raid with my rogue, you're going to have a hard time finding someone else who can tell you more about how hard a fully buffed massive blow hits for on various targets.

    edit: http://www.twitch.tv/sinecru/b/535236544 - this is from last night, feel free to check my F-G spot on my bars here and skip through the broadcast to see when deep freeze/rage of the north are about to come up and you can see me use it on various people.
    Last edited by ecru; 06-05-2014 at 12:16 AM.
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  13. #448
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    All I am saying is that if you do so and the data supports it... Post the data. There are people who contradict you...some with data to support them. In the face of data your response has largely been "I PvP so there."

    Sorry but when you are talking about games based entirely on hard math, zeroes and ones, you need to produce more than "I PvP as a Shaman." Many players are max rep and rank are good. Many are average. Many suck. This the nature of a PvP game where you can get max rep and rank simply with playtime and not just skill.

    tl;dr

    Data >anecdotal. Produce data or all you have is one person's questionable experience in a game of thousands

    Night night..
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  14. #449
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    Ah, the internet. On one side you have an individual with waaaay too much time on their hands who's written a research paper and on the other you have someone screeching "Duel me bro!"

    Which one is right? Why, it depends on which one is louder, of course.
    !

  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    i pvp as shaman pretty much exclusively now and mostly only raid with my rogue, you're going to have a hard time finding someone else who can tell you more about how hard a fully buffed massive blow hits for on various targets.
    I only said the latter 2 were from the 5v5, that first one could have had a proceeding RTL. But more to the point, do you drink while PvPing?

    Spoiler!

    3s burst 26,751 - 6s burst 35,717

    That's quite literally you hitting the healer I was queued with, without a multiple target RTL buff (was back from the front line a bit). Now imagine that you were a tad more CP focused and maybe even had the CP-proc greater essence, if you don't currently.

    Beyond that, using the buffs from charges and activating dances and whatnot is part of a soul's DPS and something that you should damn well try to take advantage of to optimize your burst.

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