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Thread: is it possible to fixe MM for PVE ?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default is it possible to fixe MM for PVE ?

    can MM be fixed for PVE. inquisitor has a interrupt and a purge but still does comparable dps to other cleric souls. but MM is just so far behind everything its one of those things you dont play unless you HAVEEEE to. since SL all encounters are pretty much anti melee, and i dont like playing pet classes but because MM dps is so low your pretty much forced into ranger on any encounter where your pet wont wipe the raid or die..

    i would just like to have a nice clean ranged dps spec without being pet dependant

  2. #2
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    No. MM is so incredibly ahead of every dps soul in existence. It moves at a completely redundant 35% passive MS. I mean come on, that's blatantly OP. It also has the ability to jump back 15m (Though half the time it launches you in a random direction).

    I mean how OP is that?

    I mean, they're taking a step in the right direction by mutilating the soul in PvP with the CD changes, but it needs to be brought much further.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

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    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    every boss in the game can be done with melee though. so why not just learn melee
    ~ | Fiskerton | Fiskermage | Fiskerheals | Fiskerbear | ~

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    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    every boss in the game can be done with melee though. so why not just learn melee
    Aside from my rather obtuse amount of sarcasm in the earlier post, I simply don't see a reason to limit MMs dps based on either utility or mobility. Both the mobility, and to a point, the utility, are utterly redundant at the moment, due to the sheer availability of both, to every other class and rogues themselves.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskerton View Post
    every boss in the game can be done with melee though. so why not just learn melee
    i dont mean to sound disrespectful but that doesnt really seem like a valid reason to leave a soul broken for PVE.. its like your saying "hey other souls work fine so theres no need to fix this one"

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Marksman is useful for PvE. It's just not very useful for raiding, but not every soul needs to be (see Dominator, and all of the dedicated AoE souls).

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    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Marksman is useful for PvE. It's just not very useful for raiding, but not every soul needs to be (see Dominator, and all of the dedicated AoE souls).
    I'ld be very careful with applying those sort of labels to MM. MM really doesn't have near the utility that dominator has, nor is it as unique as dom.

    Dedicated AoE souls being bad for raiding is less of an issue with the soul, and more of an issue with no fights having a large dedicated aoe phase/requisite worthy of devoting slots to pure AoE dps.

    All an MM brings is redundant MS/mobility and a purge that's being nerfed soon. I simply don't see any merit in that reasoning at all Muppet.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 01-01-2014 at 11:11 PM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

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    Dedicated aoe souls being bad is more a symptom of there being much better ST options with sufficient aoe included: see bladedancer, NB, Shaman, Warlock, Harbinger etc.

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    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Dedicated aoe souls being bad is more a symptom of there being much better ST options with sufficient aoe included: see bladedancer, NB, Shaman, Warlock, Harbinger etc.
    Same sides of the same coin would be my guess. Though at this point a more apt description would be a die, possibly a 50 sided one.

    Much the same over, agreed.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Marksman is useful for PvE. It's just not very useful for raiding, but not every soul needs to be (see Dominator, and all of the dedicated AoE souls).
    Odd because when these arguments were raised regarding Ranger and BD (among others) during the times they were having their issues it was broken in the eyes of many. Funny how preferences for particular souls have as much to do with this particular argument as anything else.

    That said, ultimately the only way to fix this issue is to stop listening to and then trying to answer the cries of "but my soul is not THE soul for a specific encounter." Keep the different play styles for the various souls based on ST/Ranged/AOE etc but balance the dps so MM=Ranger=Pyro=Inquis (as an example.). Otherwise these damn threads will never stop and the game will be an endless cycle of buff>nerf as the devs try to quiet the loudest crying.
    Last edited by Galibier; 01-02-2014 at 01:32 AM.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Odd because when these arguments were raised regarding Ranger and BD (among others) during the times they were having their issues it was broken in the eyes of many. Funny how preferences for particular souls have as much to do with this particular argument as anything else.
    What do you mean, "preferences for particular souls"? I despise Ranger and Marksman is probably my third-favorite rogue soul (tied with Assassin). How much I like a soul has nothing to do with balance or usability.

    The difference here is that Ranger and BD had no use at the time. Now they do. Marksman doesn't have that problem-- it's a solid build for experts due to its versatility and is great for PvP.

    But really, the issue is the same one that we've had forever-- Marksman cannot do the same DPS as Ranger, because if it does, then Ranger never gets used, as Marksman is way better at everything else. So either Ranger needs to get some utility to even that out, Marksman's utility needs to be gutted, or Marksman needs to have worse DPS.
    Last edited by Muspel; 01-02-2014 at 07:57 AM.

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    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity OP, what tier content are you currently doing? because if you're relying on MM in T1 to T2 content, you're doing it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    What do you mean, "preferences for particular souls"? I despise Ranger and Marksman is probably my third-favorite rogue soul (tied with Assassin). How much I like a soul has nothing to do with balance or usability.

    The difference here is that Ranger and BD had no use at the time. Now they do. Marksman doesn't have that problem-- it's a solid build for experts due to its versatility and is great for PvP.

    But really, the issue is the same one that we've had forever-- Marksman cannot do the same DPS as Ranger, because if it does, then Ranger never gets used, as Marksman is way better at everything else. So either Ranger needs to get some utility to even that out, Marksman's utility needs to be gutted, or Marksman needs to have worse DPS.
    It wasn't focused at anyone specifically I just remember when Gersh made the same comment and referred, I think, the pet classes, as being "souls good at soloing" or some such. People were up in arms over that. I just find that USUALLY, people will make this argument when it does not put their preferred souls on the back foot.

    Also as you know I have ALWAYS hated the insular rogue v rogue argument. So long as other callings have souls that can bring = utility to MM and greater dps then there is no logical reason to keep MM on the back foot. The constant refrain of MM vs Ranger (or BD vs NB etc)hurts the Rogue calling over all.

    Let's break it down. Just about every dps soul, and every tank, brings an interrupt of some sort. So wth cares if MM has one. Even Ranger will be getting an AoE interrupt and since it will do NO damage I fail to see how it will have a CD, that simply makes no logical sense. So now we only have MM bringing a purge. An ability that MANY other souls bring. No one was crying that NB or NB/Sin didn't bring an interrupt when they were viable. Same with Sin and all Sin can freaking do is ST dps, they can't even AoE. Why? Because other souls brought an interrupt. With MM's purge being brought more in line with other souls, and other souls with purges now being viable again, the same logic should apply.

    With the proposed change to the MM purge in mind of course, if Necros, Inquisitors, Beastmasters etc did not bring purges AND were not all viable, the former 2 in just about every damn encounter, I would see your point. However with that change in mind, what has happened is that even a min/max raid force will say "okay MM dps sucks, Inquis and Necro are better...we have plenty of interrupts and these callings can cover purges...forget the MM. Essentially your idea says "keep MM out of the raid in favor of Ranger." My idea says "well we can cover the purges with these other more than viable souls, so if I like Ranger more than MM I can run ranger."

    I like you don't like either...I find the MM rotation boring to the point of strangling kittens and I have hated the Ranger since they made pet management a joke. That said I still feel the above applies. /shrug

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Also as you know I have ALWAYS hated the insular rogue v rogue argument. So long as other callings have souls that can bring = utility to MM and greater dps then there is no logical reason to keep MM on the back foot. The constant refrain of MM vs Ranger (or BD vs NB etc)hurts the Rogue calling over all.
    "Hurts the rogue calling" would be relevant, except for the fact that rogues won't be hurting after the fixes that Vladd has planned go in. (And even now, rogues already have Bladedancer, which is rampantly overpowered on some of the hardest fights in the game.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Let's break it down. Just about every dps soul, and every tank, brings an interrupt of some sort. So wth cares if MM has one. Even Ranger will be getting an AoE interrupt and since it will do NO damage I fail to see how it will have a CD, that simply makes no logical sense. So now we only have MM bringing a purge. An ability that MANY other souls bring. No one was crying that NB or NB/Sin didn't bring an interrupt when they were viable. Same with Sin and all Sin can freaking do is ST dps, they can't even AoE. Why? Because other souls brought an interrupt. With MM's purge being brought more in line with other souls, and other souls with purges now being viable again, the same logic should apply.
    You're ignoring Marksman's mobility, which is important. It's something that you don't see talked about much since the DPS is low, but the mobility was the #1 reason that Marksman overshadowed Ranger so thoroughly before Ranger was buffed. Marksman has a much easier time dealing with ANY mechanic that involves moving, which is almost all of them. And, as an added benefit, Marksman loses less DPS on target swaps, which is crucial on fights like hardmode Progenitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    With the proposed change to the MM purge in mind of course, if Necros, Inquisitors, Beastmasters etc did not bring purges AND were not all viable, the former 2 in just about every damn encounter, I would see your point. However with that change in mind, what has happened is that even a min/max raid force will say "okay MM dps sucks, Inquis and Necro are better...we have plenty of interrupts and these callings can cover purges...forget the MM. Essentially your idea says "keep MM out of the raid in favor of Ranger." My idea says "well we can cover the purges with these other more than viable souls, so if I like Ranger more than MM I can run ranger."
    Except, again, that would not happen. If Marksman and Ranger do equal DPS, then Ranger is underpowered. You can fix this by buffing Ranger or by nerfing Marksman (or doing some of both), but you can't just ignore the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I like you don't like either...I find the MM rotation boring to the point of strangling kittens and I have hated the Ranger since they made pet management a joke. That said I still feel the above applies. /shrug
    Uh... that's not like me. I do like Marksman.

  15. #15
    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    You also need to take into acct that clerics souls are 3 healing a defiler and tank. Rogues uave tank and bard. Rest are dps. So us rogues are lucky enough to have an over load of dps souls to choose from and all have a function. Clerics get inq for ranged dps shaman for melee and druid for lazy melee i guess. So yea the only soul clerics have at ranged is their lower dps spec as its ranged and has utility. Rogues have 2 ranged and 1 is better utility than inq, even when the purge cd it made longer it will still be quicker than inq's. Melee we have 3 and a hybrid. Why should every rogue souls be able to do the same as another class that has very few options to what they play. Buffing mm kills ranger. No way around it cause if the dps is even kinda close then why have a pet and no utility.



    As far as your anti melee since sl comment i have to wonder how much raid exp you have. There is not 1 single encounter that is unable to be meleed. Tenders is the closest one but that can be done in melee as well but it is difficult. Being forced into ranger? Maybe by your raid leader. Aside from a few pulls when pbb lauched i have not needed ranger once.

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