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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Upcoming Rogue Changes

  1. #46
    Plane Walker Eione's Avatar
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    You do not create soul diversity by giving some souls stuff like minimal range, positional requirement and similar gameplay nuisances. If that is the way to go I have quite a few ingenius ideas for Vladd!

    I have to say I mostly like changes, but I'm against major changes to bladedancer. It's a very rewarding soul if you take a little effort and plan your dances for each fight. For example, it is great playing it on inyr because you want to have basp and fated up for the crystals,without sacrificing too much st, and leave weaker dances for the wave phase.

  2. #47
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    Default Erradicate, Bladedancer, and Tach

    I'm not a fan of the Eradicate CD increase for MM. Maybe a PVP only increase would be warranted, I can see that. I just feel this puts stress on smaller guilds with balancing issues for fights that require a fair amount of quick purges.

    I guess it wouldn't be absurd to summon a few guild trainers so Warriors can put 6 points into VK, and Clerics can put 12 points into Inquisitor as well as Mages putting 6 points into Necromancer for whatever the respective build they're running is if you are short on purges.

    Its just nice to see a Marksman clear 4 of the 5 stacks of Abhorrent Growth on Kyzan especially if you have no Cleric DPS, or a VK tank. There's also Goloch with his 8 stacks of end of days.

    Once again, I see this change mainly just hurting small guilds that have balancing issues though and is one of the few things I personally disagree about. I am not saying that the change wouldn't help elsewhere like PVP, but in PVE can see it being a bit of a thorn unless you make it an ability further down in the tree. An example would be a 12 point MM ability so maybe make your bard spec 12 into MM or something to help.



    So after that fair bit of rambly opinion, which might be viewed harshly, but it is simply my opinion on the matter. I think BD is in a good place short of disconnects, but if you time the AEs right on certain fights you don't really have any disconnects. I like the difficulty of the class, I enjoy it makes every fight an awesome puzzle to figure out on the fly. Please don't simplify it and remove that amazing aspect of the soul.


    Also, I feel Tactician needs more love than any rogue soul right now. Of the four souls that came out in storm legion (Harbinger, Tempest, Defiler, and Tactician) Tactician is used the leased in PVE and I'm pretty sure the same goes for PVP (Maybe folks don't use defiler in PVP, I don't know.) Harb is the best DPS soul for mages, has amazing hybridization (Harbchon, Necrobinger, Chlorobinger, Harbcaller, ect....) Tempest recently got buffed and is now one of the best ranged DPS souls in the game with some good hybridization (warlord/tempest the 51 tempest build, at a time tempagon before it got nerfed out of existence). Defilers make or break raids with their links if you're short on mages to go 61 Necromancer, or doing a fight that doesn't like pets. They also have decent AoE dps, a battle res, and substantial healing. Tactician....works okay with Marksman and hybrids with Bard to make a spec that isn't good for anything in Tachbard.

    So you now have this soul, that came out with these three other amazing and needed souls for Storm Legion, and have kinda nerfed any good it could do into the ground. You don't want it in raids, not sure people want it in pvp, Bladedancer makes for a better soloing soul, Sab does better AoE, Bard does far better true healing and has Orchestra of the Planes, it appears Tach just doesn't have a home. It's unemployed and looking for work but everyone else has better skills than it and now it's broke come the holiday season and its children want presents but instead all the neighbor kids do while Tacticians kids cry at night because their mommy left them for someone else.

    I guess Ablative Coil would be real nice, but the 2 minute CD doens't justify the huge loss of dps and the minimal gain in HPS a tach would bring. The some could be said about Fortification Core as well. So maybe instead of healing make it a more shield oriented and damage reduction soul kind of like the old Puri before they fixed it? RIght now this soul is a jack of all trades but a master of none. It be nice to see it be made to actually be used in the wonderful content out there, maybe get a job as a back up receptionist at a Motel 6, or possibly viable in raid and PVP content.

    I'm done now. I know I droned on, but I feel this soul could be great and its not. It's just useless in its current state.

  3. #48
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aksinan View Post
    Is it just me who thinks these changes are really boring?
    So assassin lose dps if it doesn't stand behind the target... Then for the few fights where you can't pick another build.
    So ranger can't hit in melee range... then pick another build for that fight or learn how to get out off melee range..
    Why do we have to try and streamline every build to fit every fight!
    Because the better they succssed in doing this the closer we will get to a one build power house where everyone has to play the same build!

    It seems to me that the current managment off rift does not understand that the good thing about having many builds is to make them diffrent!
    If you are going to add alot of things to make a build easier you also have to add some things that make it tricky. Else there will be absolutly zero reward for playing well.

    And no I am not saying that removing ranged requierment from ranger will destroy the game!
    But that is just one thing! What is next? Give all ranger pets instant 50yard blink so ranger wont suffer from target switches? cus clearly Pyromancer doesn't blah blah blah!

    I hate this steps. I hope that someone realises this before every build becomes simplyfied to destruction.

    Some of you are missing a few things...it is NOT just about myopically looking at Rogues internally. What balance is there is THE top ST spec for rogue has a position limitation...meaning you can not use it on all fights...when no other calling has their top spec sharing the same disadvantage? That is the issue with Sin and it is why it needs to be changed. Essentially the current design meant that on some fights the other callings could bring their top spec to the table and Rogues could not.

  4. #49
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yammis View Post
    I'm not a fan of the Eradicate CD increase for MM. Maybe a PVP only increase would be warranted, I can see that. I just feel this puts stress on smaller guilds with balancing issues for fights that require a fair amount of quick purges.

    The problem is that the effectively 3 second CD on erradicate made it so that it was difficult to justify MM doing real dps. You could say "well Inquis has a purge and an interrupt as well"...the response would be "yes but a fully spec'd MM has their purge CD at only 3 seconds."

    In order to dodge QQ over MM getting a dps bump you needed to make this change.

  5. #50
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    Either sin or NB need an interrupt.. or a purge. Or how about one gets one and the other gets the other...?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph1111 View Post
    Either sin or NB need an interrupt.. or a purge. Or how about one gets one and the other gets the other...?
    Or make going 12 points into BD worth it.

    I think Assassin should do more ST dps than Shaman and Paragon. Since no aoe next to zero utility.
    Last edited by Waseem2k; 12-14-2013 at 06:58 AM.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  7. #52
    Rift Disciple Aksinan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Some of you are missing a few things...it is NOT just about myopically looking at Rogues internally. What balance is there is THE top ST spec for rogue has a position limitation...meaning you can not use it on all fights...when no other calling has their top spec sharing the same disadvantage? That is the issue with Sin and it is why it needs to be changed. Essentially the current design meant that on some fights the other callings could bring their top spec to the table and Rogues could not.
    And your missing the point completly! That's what I mean If we can have one end all top damage build that we use on each fight the ghame willl SUCK BALLS.
    And positioning limitations are rogues weakness sometimes!
    You say other builds dont have the same dissadvantages NO they don't they have others...
    Inq for example has terrible AOE, has terrible target switching.
    Pyro has drops to zero dps if they have to constantly move! If they are out off instant cast fillers their dps sinks like a rock.

    You want rogues to be completly OP. You want all the strengths and no dissadvantages.

  8. #53
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aksinan View Post
    And your missing the point completly! That's what I mean If we can have one end all top damage build that we use on each fight the ghame willl SUCK BALLS.
    And positioning limitations are rogues weakness sometimes!
    You say other builds dont have the same dissadvantages NO they don't they have others...
    Inq for example has terrible AOE, has terrible target switching.
    Pyro has drops to zero dps if they have to constantly move! If they are out off instant cast fillers their dps sinks like a rock.

    You want rogues to be completly OP. You want all the strengths and no dissadvantages.
    Actually Inq can aoe quite well if you know what you're doing.
    If you have to run that much as pyro you are obviously doing something wrong. There is a ton of instant fillers.
    Rogues do the least amount of damage overall, and we lose more when there's **** like positional requirements and no real way to handle disconnects.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  9. #54
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aksinan View Post
    And your missing the point completly! That's what I mean If we can have one end all top damage build that we use on each fight the ghame willl SUCK BALLS.
    And positioning limitations are rogues weakness sometimes!
    You say other builds dont have the same dissadvantages NO they don't they have others...
    Inq for example has terrible AOE, has terrible target switching.
    Pyro has drops to zero dps if they have to constantly move! If they are out off instant cast fillers their dps sinks like a rock.

    You want rogues to be completly OP. You want all the strengths and no dissadvantages.
    Wth are you talking about? How the hell is having parity between callings OP? So Assassin is now...sorta...on an equal footing with Paragon and Harbinger if these changes go live. Wth do Pyro and Inquis have to do with Sin? Maybe you missed the memo but in SL their expressed paradigm is Melee>ranged.

    Due to this paradigm you compare our top ST melee dps spec to Para and Harb (as examples) Right now Sin matches em but only when the Sin can get a back. This means by definition that Rogues are BEHIND the other callings because their top melee ST dps does not have such a limitation and there are fights where you can get NO back to attack.

    You really need to take a breadth man. Stop...look at PvE mechanics...look at the performance of people who are not mouth breathers and then come to a decision because saying that the proposed change to Sin makes it OP is down right wrong...period.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem2k View Post
    Actually Inq can aoe quite well if you know what you're doing.
    If you have to run that much as pyro you are obviously doing something wrong. There is a ton of instant fillers.
    Rogues do the least amount of damage overall, and we lose more when there's **** like positional requirements and no real way to handle disconnects.
    This is somewhat off-topic from the rogue changes, but Inquisitor AoE isn't good. Soul Drain is efficient, but you can't rely on it for many situations.

    However, I don't know why that person was comparing the sin positional requirement to ranged spec nuances.
    Last edited by Ahov; 12-14-2013 at 07:53 AM.

  11. #56
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    Question:

    - How far to the side of a mob is still considered being behind the mob? - before the penalty kicks in?

  12. #57
    Rift Disciple Aksinan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Wth are you talking about? How the hell is having parity between callings OP? So Assassin is now...sorta...on an equal footing with Paragon and Harbinger if these changes go live. Wth do Pyro and Inquis have to do with Sin? Maybe you missed the memo but in SL their expressed paradigm is Melee>ranged.

    Due to this paradigm you compare our top ST melee dps spec to Para and Harb (as examples) Right now Sin matches em but only when the Sin can get a back. This means by definition that Rogues are BEHIND the other callings because their top melee ST dps does not have such a limitation and there are fights where you can get NO back to attack.

    You really need to take a breadth man. Stop...look at PvE mechanics...look at the performance of people who are not mouth breathers and then come to a decision because saying that the proposed change to Sin makes it OP is down right wrong...period.
    I am never said that these changes make a build good or bad. What I was meaning (english second language) was that dumbing a build down. Removing all the stuff that makes the builds unique is not the way. If a build is falling behind on the damage done then buff the damage done.
    Say for example that for some reason Paragon sucks because it is melee. The anwser is not to make it ranged then. The anwser is to adapt the damage to make it strong even though dissconnects is an issue.

    I would say that assassin is abit the same thing. If you have an ability called Backstab that can only be used when behind the target. Then the sulotion is probobly to increase the damage off some other spell so that you don't lose quiet so much from not standing behind. Or make it stronger in some other aspect to weight it up.
    Anyhows what I am trying to say is that assassin should not allways be good on every fight.
    If you make it so that assassin is the best on every fight then we will be stuck with the one build does it all situation.
    And that removes the strongest aspect off this game in my opinion.
    Hope that cleared up what I meant

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    Nightblade:
    • Flame Blitz: Now spreads the Fiery Spike stacks equal to the target’s stack count.
    • Ebon Blades: Now a 100% chance to apply debuff. Damage reduced by 75%.
    Flame blitz should be always at least +1 (up to max stacks), i.e. it should never reduce stack size on the extra targets. It can happen if the main target dies and auto-switching to another may result in stack drops.

    Also Ebon Blades change is an interesting one - it ensures much better target switch at the expense of damage reduction - is that base damage reduction? However it will have some stable effects during living flame and slightly better proc rate of some trinklets, namely the pvp one.

    Marksman increased cooldown of eradicate is a good one as well, it's just too ridiculously powerful in pvp (and kyzan)
    Last edited by xxs; 12-14-2013 at 08:49 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem2k View Post
    Or make going 12 points into BD worth it.

    I think Assassin should do more ST dps than Shaman and Paragon. Since no aoe next to zero utility.
    Assassin's need to have their stuns reworked in to interupt or / and silence, since you seems to fail to notice their stuns then you shouldn't have problems with seeing such changes ;)


    Look mate, they are supposed to deal a lot of dmg not have utility. You aren't supposed to be 1 man army who can do everything, leave the utility to supports classes. That's what makes the game balanced. The DPS deal high consistent dmg, The killers deal high burst dmg and are often limited by high cds. Tanks can often forget about positioning and just run through enemy team with important objectives required to win the match. Supports are the ones who should bring the utility via buffs and debuffs. Healers have strong burst heal and heal over time (Clerics that is)
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  15. #60
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    I don't think there's anything wrong with Bladedancer's dances. Keep them how they are.
    Even free cost too much now

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