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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Tactician - The Other 57 Points

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Tactician - The Other 57 Points

    Given that we have a new developer looking after rogues, I thought it would be interesting to see if there were any ideas on how to make Tactician more than a 4 point sub soul for solo builds.

    Personally I would like to see it being given a clear role at 61 but with options to use as part of a hybrid that was competitive in the role. I would see something like the old tacman being pushed to competitive AoE levels or tacbard as a real AoE healer, but with that specialisation into damage or healing severely limiting what you can do on the other side to keep things balanced. More challenging would be what role the 61 point spec could fill.

  2. #2
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    Vladd is planning a State of the Rogue post. (post #317).

    I was waiting on that before wondering about Tactician and other roles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaszar View Post
    Vladd is planning a State of the Rogue post. (post #317).

    I was waiting on that before wondering about Tactician and other roles.
    I've been waiting to see that post too, he said early this week so I was hoping to see it today.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    I've been waiting to see that post too, he said early this week so I was hoping to see it today.
    If it's not in by tomorrow, it officially hits mid week and I say we start yelling and demanding these answers we so rightfully deserve. Don't ever yield your sense of entitlement, you deserve to feel that way because you are a part of an elite class of people who play MMOs. Stand tall and rise up should you have to wait beyond the exact specified time for the release of information that is owed to you.

  5.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    I've been waiting to see that post too, he said early this week so I was hoping to see it today.
    I've working on it still. I got a little too in character for the Reaver ideation because I've been a source of contagion and disease for the past few days.

  6. #6
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    Can we please please please have some love for bards too? I mean, it's useful in pvp and pve raids to some degree, but it would be nice if it was disireable for solo or group content SOMEWHERE.

    Bard has such interesting mechanics and concepts -- it just needs a little love.

    Why not make bard a full-blown "raid healing" heal spec and not make us wait until 3.0 for rogue heals

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelorean View Post
    Can we please please please have some love for bards too? I mean, it's useful in pvp and pve raids to some degree, but it would be nice if it was disireable for solo or group content SOMEWHERE.

    Bard has such interesting mechanics and concepts -- it just needs a little love.

    Why not make bard a full-blown "raid healing" heal spec and not make us wait until 3.0 for rogue heals
    Bards seem to be very effective at the role they fill. I think you would be in the minority saying they should be changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    I've working on it still. I got a little too in character for the Reaver ideation because I've been a source of contagion and disease for the past few days.
    OK, so we won't expect anything re: Rogue fixes in the upcoming patch tomorrow?

    Just asking.

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    brb, spamming motif of encouragement to force up to 5 nearby Dev's to follow me for 20sec!
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalthium View Post
    Bards seem to be very effective at the role they fill. I think you would be in the minority saying they should be changed.
    The problem is that their role is very limited and not all players would have a reason to use it. If you don't raid and/or don't do conquest, you don't really NEED to ever use a 61 bard. (It's good in warfronts if the rest of your team is good, I'll admit that ...but, it's not a make-or-break spec to have in warfronts.)

    As I said, I would just like to see it be more useful for groups or solo play. I don't mind that the dps sucks for it, but it should be able to buff the rest of the group's dps sufficiently so that the rest of the group doesn't mind you playing 61 bard...make sense what I'm saying?

    Or, like I said, I see no reason why bard couldn't be changed to be a true healing spec, and let tactician be our "support" spec. I've healed experts/raids with chloro. on my mage alt, and the healing concept is very similar to bard (just MUCH more effective!)

    The way to balance this would be easy: have bard have a "healing" stance and then a "boost" stance. I am not requesting that bard have all of it's current utility while at hte same time being able to main heal....one or the other is just fine

  11. #11
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    imo, the bard is fine except to the myriad of useless (but totally useless) skills - encouragement, power chord tree (some small chance to use in pvp, but that's it), cast time of aoe sleep (mez) is way too long, so it's hard to pull a useful case for except solo (solo bard!).

    The damage boost is too little for 5man group, so this is what a bard needs - either boosted healing ability - at least to druid levels or boosted dmg for 3 targets only similar to deflier links but placing debuff aura to the entire raid too, so any extra bards won't be useful in bigger groups.

    Pyro/harbarchon are very useful in 5man but beastmaster shares similar to bard's fate.
    Tactician may use dmg boosts but needs to have lesser synergy w/ marksman tree to make it anyhow useful.
    Last edited by xxs; 12-10-2013 at 07:28 PM.

  12. #12
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    Actually bard can use some love. It could use a few minor tweaks

    Cadenza could stand a 15-20% boost to the base stat.
    Cadence could stand a 20-25% boost to the base stat.

    To put bards on par with Archons. CoW and CoD at 61 points, should be 1 minute per combo point. Sure, this would not be the same as a one gcd that Archon's get, but it could let us keep buffs up for the same duration.

    I think there should be another Anthem. Ok, so we give run speed - woo hoo (/end sarcasm). We can give armor, we can do fervor when there is no LE. But there is always a Chloro. Anthem of Glory is interesting, but 2k armor is nothing. Perhaps if it was % based. Perhaps change Motif of Regeneration and just make an anthem that gives a healing bonus with armor to choose betwen Glory with a % healing and more resist than current.

    This pains me to type . . . change Power Chord to be Power Cleanse. Make it an AoE cleanse.

    If people really want to heal, then fix Harmonic Distortion to be a very big heal. And I mean VERY big. If we have to get 5 rotations for it to boost the bard, then make it worthwhile to lose the boost. Yes, this could be a 30-50k heal.

    I would also like to see our shield do more than a 3k shield.

    /end my 2 cents.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daayou View Post
    Actually bard can use some love. It could use a few minor tweaks

    Cadenza could stand a 15-20% boost to the base stat.
    Cadence could stand a 20-25% boost to the base stat.

    To put bards on par with Archons. CoW and CoD at 61 points, should be 1 minute per combo point. Sure, this would not be the same as a one gcd that Archon's get, but it could let us keep buffs up for the same duration.

    I think there should be another Anthem. Ok, so we give run speed - woo hoo (/end sarcasm). We can give armor, we can do fervor when there is no LE. But there is always a Chloro. Anthem of Glory is interesting, but 2k armor is nothing. Perhaps if it was % based. Perhaps change Motif of Regeneration and just make an anthem that gives a healing bonus with armor to choose betwen Glory with a % healing and more resist than current.

    This pains me to type . . . change Power Chord to be Power Cleanse. Make it an AoE cleanse.

    If people really want to heal, then fix Harmonic Distortion to be a very big heal. And I mean VERY big. If we have to get 5 rotations for it to boost the bard, then make it worthwhile to lose the boost. Yes, this could be a 30-50k heal.

    I would also like to see our shield do more than a 3k shield.

    /end my 2 cents.
    Glory should be changed to % based, but it would have to be low, like 1-3%. Resist is not particularly useful, so I doubt that anything but the armor/heal anthem would be used, if it was made into something useful. I like the 3 motifs as is however so I don't know if I like getting rid of Motif of Regeneration.

    I like the cleanse idea, but make it have a large CD so that it is basically a worst case scenario.

    Unfortunately, at that point, Bard may as well not even have a support flag. Also, we are getting a ST healing class in a year or five, so maybe instead of having Harmonic Distortion be a 30-50k ST heal, make it have the same amount of heals as it currently does (or maybe a little more), but make it hit 10 targets instead. Same amount of healing, spread over 10 people.
    Erct - <Undaunted> - Wolfsbane.
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  14. #14
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    Go, go bard derail!

    I'd like the damage boosts to Cadenza and Cadence, somewhere in the 20-30% range for both should put us at the lower end of Pyrochon numbers for DPS and in Chloro range when healing.

    A minute per CP for Weakness and Distress would be neat, but they are AoE so I can see the trade off there. The one thing I would like is that I want Coda of Distress to not overwrite Crumbling Resistance. There are a number of times you want to drop the AoE debuff on the boss stack to catch adds and the Archon doesn't notice that the boss is no longer properly debuffed.

    Don't be hating on competence. Not standing in stuff 15% faster all of the time is a big DPS buff. Anthem of Glory is already covered by the Archon or Beastmaster. Motif of Regeneration is already kind of a big deal. Not only does it heal, but it increases healing received by 5%. If another anthem is the call, maybe that's a use case for Motif of Encouragement. Give the run speed to that and then Competence does something else? The run speed on Encouragement would be an interesting trade off. It would give extra wiggle room for fights where people move out of Competence's range to retain the speed buff for a bit, but it wouldn't be available out of combat where I notice it most. I don't know what to give Competence though, maybe a CP buff? Is there anything that gives that?

    Verse of Occlusion is kind of lackluster at 3k in T2 gear, but it does affect the whole raid. A little bigger might be nice, but something I'd like to see would be including the CD reduction for it in Modulation, which already affects two of our other verses. I would be neat if it applied to all Verses, but Joy on a shorter CD might be problematic.

    Power Chord either needs to go or get a giant bump in damage. A cleanse would be nice, but after all of this time, I don't see it happening. Particularly considering Physician is coming. Maybe making it an interrupt? I know we have a ghetto interrupt that occasionally works in Verse of Captivation, but it only works randomly in PvE. Particularly seeing as how rogues are lacking interrupts in most of the actually useful raid specs - Sin and NB are completely without. Ranger's is a terrible option being a finisher. BD does have one, but most of the fights you want interrupts on don't call for BD's strengths.

    I'd also like to see a CD reduction on Virtuoso. Is there another purely personal DPS buff in the game that has a 3 minute CD like that?

    I don't know that such a big heal for Harmonic Distortion is called for, but a buff for that would be nice as well. The big thing I'd like to see for it would be something to make it easier to use. I have a ton of keybinds as it is and it's single target nature makes it cumbersome to use for the rest of our playstyle. Perhaps instead turn it into a 5 person, smart Verse of Vitality where it just heals the 5 lowest people? That way you can get some emergency healing out while DPSing. Or just make it a smart single target heal?

  15. #15
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    All of you that want damage boosts to bard, just stop. If you boost it's damage to pyrochon levels, then you'll have all the mages rightfully complaining that archons need to be able to heal, just causing more imbalance.

    Just realize that your role as a bard is the following, in order:
    Buffing group/raid DPS (through both raid buffs and enemy debuffs)
    Providing supplemental heals WHEN NEEDED
    Personal DPS

    The biggest change that's required for bards is a boost to Power Chord to make it useful. Other than that, I think bard is the role that requires the least amount of change.

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