+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 36 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 531
Like Tree131Likes

  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rogue buffs

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    931

    Default Rogue buffs

    Soo umm. Can we get some buffs now. Every set of patch notes there are massive changes to warriors. Rogues haven't really been touched in ages. And we all know we are well behind other classes.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,120

    Default

    Rogues are behind? We have competitive ranged and melee specs while having the versatility of 6 different raid-viable dps souls (sin nb bd rng mm sab). Remove sin positional requirement and were good. We need QoL fixes not buffs.

    Although personally I would rework nightblade somewhat but that's a personal opinion. Nightblade still pulls good dps

    Right now vladd needs to help warriors as much as he can. Once warriors are under control he can look at rogues.
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 11-21-2013 at 06:40 AM.
    ~ | Fiskerton | Fiskermage | Fiskerheals | Fiskerbear | ~

    I'm a homeless stray of a raider

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    19

    Default

    I couldn't agree more yet everytime I bring this up to fellow players, in Ventrillo conversations, and other arenas I hear this same argument"

    "But but but Rogues have SUCH GREAT UTILITY." Some also argue that we are good movement DPSers and that these things justify us being massively behind other classes in terms of DPS.

    Sure Bards and tacts have amazing utilty. MM is solid for a reliable purge or interrupt. But WTF else to we bring to the table apart from an armor debuff here and there and the crit debuffs from assassin or BD? And does all this purported utility justify having to chose between competitive ST dps and AE? Does it justify having to stealth before a fight, meet a behind positional requirement, and stay fully connected in melee to maintain our best ST DPS?

    Shaman don't have to chose between ST and AE, Harbs have disconnect options, and I'm not going to go in to the warrior issue because it's been talked to death recently. Shaman and warriors (and not just the best geared/talented ones) are parsing over 30K ST consistently even 35K+ on some fights without any DPS boost, Rogues are lucky to get up in the 27-30K range with perfect rotations and mechanic handling.

    Sure rogues are great at taking out trash packs...so are champs (sometimes better). But we have to make sacrifices all over the place to do what we do, which I'd be fine with if other classes had to as well. But they don't and they do much better DPS with fewer requirements and better disconnect handling across the board.

    I'd rather not see everyone else nerfed, I'd like to see rogues brought up. Sure we'll always have raid spots for barding, BD on T2 fights, and we are not "Bad" overall in terms of DPS. But we have to work very hard to maintain our DPS and it should be more rewarding for succeeding at this.

    Edit: Already anticipating rogue in-fighting in this thread. It would be super cool if we decided to share common goals and support our class getting some attention rather than nitpick, e-peen, and argue. What are you going to feel guilty or something if suddenly we get buffed and do better DPS? Will you feel bad when you can do 1 or 2 utility things and still maintain really good DPS? And if so why and why argue about it?
    Last edited by Wolfpack47; 11-21-2013 at 06:53 AM.
    Rawl the Rogue
    Proud Member of MUTINY on Greybriar. 9/9 - T1, 4/4GA, 2/3IG, 2/5PBB

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Louiscipher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfpack47 View Post
    I couldn't agree more yet everytime I bring this up to fellow players, in Ventrillo conversations, and other arenas I hear this same argument"

    "But but but Rogues have SUCH GREAT UTILITY." Some also argue that we are good movement DPSers and that these things justify us being massively behind other classes in terms of DPS.

    Sure Bards and tacts have amazing utilty. MM is solid for a reliable purge or interrupt. But WTF else to we bring to the table apart from an armor debuff here and there and the crit debuffs from assassin or BD? And does all this purported utility justify having to chose between competitive ST dps and AE? Does it justify having to stealth before a fight, meet a behind positional requirement, and stay fully connected in melee to maintain our best ST DPS?

    Shaman don't have to chose between ST and AE, Harbs have disconnect options, and I'm not going to go in to the warrior issue because it's been talked to death recently. Shaman and warriors (and not just the best geared/talented ones) are parsing over 30K ST consistently even 35K+ on some fights without any DPS boost, Rogues are lucky to get up in the 27-30K range with perfect rotations and mechanic handling.

    Sure rogues are great at taking out trash packs...so are champs (sometimes better). But we have to make sacrifices all over the place to do what we do, which I'd be fine with if other classes had to as well. But they don't and they do much better DPS with fewer requirements and better disconnect handling across the board.

    I'd rather not see everyone else nerfed, I'd like to see rogues brought up. Sure we'll always have raid spots for barding, BD on T2 fights, and we are not "Bad" overall in terms of DPS. But we have to work very hard to maintain our DPS and it should be more rewarding for succeeding at this.

    Edit: Already anticipating rogue in-fighting in this thread. It would be super cool if we decided to share common goals and support our class getting some attention rather than nitpick, e-peen, and argue. What are you going to feel guilty or something if suddenly we get buffed and do better DPS? Will you feel bad when you can do 1 or 2 utility things and still maintain really good DPS? And if so why and why argue about it?
    I do agree we have great utility but sadly many rogues are just one trick ponies. They play one build and use a pocket healer and pretend their OP. That being said I agree we do need more buffs to be on par with other classes, or perhaps passives. The rogue class is great because we more then any other class can switch builds to adapt to any given situation, but like I said earlier most rogues only use one build. Perhaps buffing us more will placate the one trick pony baddies but it is definitely not the answer long term; even though I agree overall some builds do require more buffs.
    Last edited by Louiscipher; 11-21-2013 at 10:53 AM.
    “Why should I not hate mine enemies―if I "love" them does that not place me at their mercy?”
    ― Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

  5. #5
    Rift Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    641

    Default

    All in all, I think the issues are pretty easy to disect:
    - Rogues have the higher number of ST DPS classes available of all the callings (War:4, Cleric:3, Mage:4, though can you really consider elementalist?). Thus, each one has to be more specialized
    - From a PvE perspective, both MM and Inq are equal in terms of utility, but MM rules inq in PvP (higher burst, more utility). So, unless we bring the PvP specific damage reductions back (ew), MM DPS has to remain lower.
    - Sin is competitive, except for the positional requirement.
    - The other DPS specs have more compromises (disconnects, AoE ramp up, lack of ranged cleave) compared to other classes.

    Honestly, I'd love it if they completely gutted NB, instead turning the soul into a high DPS tank spec, similar to a VK. Could also provide something to provide some synergy for RS, to allow for higher mitigation, less CDs. And would provide the same number of DPS roles as warriors so there could be proper equivalences.

  6. #6
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    All in all, I think the issues are pretty easy to disect:
    - Rogues have the higher number of ST DPS classes available of all the callings (War:4, Cleric:3, Mage:4, though can you really consider elementalist?). Thus, each one has to be more specialized
    - From a PvE perspective, both MM and Inq are equal in terms of utility, but MM rules inq in PvP (higher burst, more utility). So, unless we bring the PvP specific damage reductions back (ew), MM DPS has to remain lower.
    - Sin is competitive, except for the positional requirement.
    - The other DPS specs have more compromises (disconnects, AoE ramp up, lack of ranged cleave) compared to other classes.

    Honestly, I'd love it if they completely gutted NB, instead turning the soul into a high DPS tank spec, similar to a VK. Could also provide something to provide some synergy for RS, to allow for higher mitigation, less CDs. And would provide the same number of DPS roles as warriors so there could be proper equivalences.
    Assassin is competitive, but not ahead, of the other ST dps specs, that's the major issue. A spec, balanced around a positional requirement, is wholly behind classes lacking said requirements. Assassin should be slightly ahead for a variety of reasons, including their lack of any utility (No interrupts, no AoE) in addition to their positional requisites.

    I really do think that NB should be on par with builds like shaman at the very least, considering both classes do nearly identical roles, ST melee dps with a very strong suite of aoes.

    The main issues facing most rogue souls is somewhere along the line they're fundamentally broken. NBs reliance on Living Flame hurts it, sins positional requirements and low dps for it's requisites, BD and disconnects etc.

    Rogues *are* behind, but played correctly, if not better then their counterparts, they can keep up and compete, but most people refuse to think, that a rogue isn't competing with them because they're as viable, but rather because that player is strictly doing better then the other.

    As for MMs trumping inqs in pvp dps, that's completely and utterly false. MMs are more *reliable*, in a situation where inqs have no cleanses on the other side, but theres heals, inqs easily easily outstrip an MMs dps, there's very little comparison. Also, balancing MM being one of the lowest dps classes in the game because of the fact that it's skillset is strong in pvp is one of the most absurd statements I have heard in a long line of absurd statements.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  7. #7
    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    913

    Default

    Imo if could just get another round of those mild buffs sin and nb got in 2.5 we would be good.

    Nb upping hr another percent and the same with ebon blades should be enough to make it viable againsmewhere other than ga.

    Sin is tricky though. It would need prob another 2-3 bump in ew to put its dps right. The problem there is the lower investment might cause problems with a hybrid. Maybe adding it on to malicious poison. Target takes an extra 3% damage from the rogue for 10 secs after a malicious proc. That way its still deep in the root and the dmge increase would work the same as ew.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spowers454 View Post
    Imo if could just get another round of those mild buffs sin and nb got in 2.5 we would be good.

    Nb upping hr another percent and the same with ebon blades should be enough to make it viable againsmewhere other than ga.

    Sin is tricky though. It would need prob another 2-3 bump in ew to put its dps right. The problem there is the lower investment might cause problems with a hybrid. Maybe adding it on to malicious poison. Target takes an extra 3% damage from the rogue for 10 secs after a malicious proc. That way its still deep in the root and the dmge increase would work the same as ew.
    The problem with rogues is caused exactly by this kind of approach. All Ailion did for rogues in the past year was tweak a few numbers without really addressing most the core issues of the souls. Maybe he was too busy with warriors or other development to have time to tune rogues more but the result is what we have now.

    What we really need is some actual rebalancing of ability damages away from the random procs into the abilities themselves, quality of life improvements and fixing other issues that keep rogue specs so impractical compared to other callings. It doesn't matter if we can do same dps on a dummy as others if we can almost never do the same in actual fights because rogues are designed to hit dummies instead of mobs.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    5,832

    Default

    Anyone saying Rogues lack dps needs to meet some good rogues.

    Gery is on the money that the issues are core to the souls themselves. I know i give our Rogues **** about getting half their dps from poisons and needing no skill etc. Ill defenitely agree Assassin needs to get less of its dps passively. I don't see NB getting much use but BD, MM, Ranger and Sin definitely do, in that regard youre at least more varied than other classes.

    BD in particular is a monster right now and Ailion buffed it
    Nope.

  10. #10
    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    913

    Default

    I like the current set up for our melee specs though. Each has a niche. All have a weakness or 2 and im good with that. I love the idea that if the dps was adjusted, mostly with sin and nb, tyat we would be more veritile and have the most options for dps. Meaning if our dps was tweaked abit more we wouldnt be like the other 3 classes and have a go to spec that does it all.


    Sin should be just behind top specs from other classes in front of a target. If you can get behind a good portion or all of a fight then it should be ahead by 1k min. We all know bds niche and its not in a bad spot over all atm, though i would love a phantom blades like cd for it with a longer cd since bd shouldnt be used for heavy dc fight. Nb should be right with sin w/o being behind. Most any fight will have enough dcs to push it over if a sin cant get behind a good portion of the fight. I dont see the need for a full rework of any of them the intent to have all 3 melee souls used is clear. Just need to get the dps buffed so it works.

  11. #11
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spowers454 View Post
    I like the current set up for our melee specs though. Each has a niche. All have a weakness or 2 and im good with that. I love the idea that if the dps was adjusted, mostly with sin and nb, tyat we would be more veritile and have the most options for dps. Meaning if our dps was tweaked abit more we wouldnt be like the other 3 classes and have a go to spec that does it all.


    Sin should be just behind top specs from other classes in front of a target. If you can get behind a good portion or all of a fight then it should be ahead by 1k min. We all know bds niche and its not in a bad spot over all atm, though i would love a phantom blades like cd for it with a longer cd since bd shouldnt be used for heavy dc fight. Nb should be right with sin w/o being behind. Most any fight will have enough dcs to push it over if a sin cant get behind a good portion of the fight. I dont see the need for a full rework of any of them the intent to have all 3 melee souls used is clear. Just need to get the dps buffed so it works.
    They really don't need a dps buff so much, as they need their dps rearranged. It would end up being a buff, hopefully, but in the end it wouldn't have the most effect on the rotations, rather simply making it more punishing for an assassin, for example, to slip up it's rotations.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    931

    Default

    The biggest issue i see with rogue specs is either they have burst dps at the start and then dip as the fight goes on or the dps takes too long to build up. We're still behind in either sense.

    I agree BD is in a good place. There's no real build up time. You can switch from one target to the other pretty easily and if you know the fight well you can time Hundred Blades for your disconnects.

    Every other melee spec, including assassin suffer greatly from disconnects. Ranger loses out when you have to target switch.

    NB needs not to rely on living flame and most of our specs need disconnect options. Look at warriors, both paragon and riftblade. Harbinger and even shaman has plenty of ranged abilities to not lose too much dps. I've even sustained Druid pretty well during disconnects.
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

  13. #13
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,724

    Default

    As said Rogues are doing pretty fine when it just comes down to DPS numbers (well, with the exception of Marksman which seems to be constantly held back out of fear of PvP backlash - never mind that PvP-specific modifiers can always be applied if needed); it's gameplay and QoL tweaks that are needed.

    - Assassin's overly-restrictive "must always be behind the target" nature which often doesn't really work out in Rift's encounters.
    - Nightblade's over-reliance on Living Flame (especially for AoE).
    - Ranger has a bunch of abilities that may as well not even exist for all the use they are. Plus an Interrupt that consumes your combo points.
    - Marksman's already poor damage is rendered even worse by being tied to a silly temp pet (that feels like it has roughly 5HP at times!)
    Last edited by Kedon; 11-21-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,840

    Default

    If you want to talk about buffs you have to make more specific, some rogue souls are already very good and Assassin is even a bit over the top due to 2x 4sec stun (imo)

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer Waseem2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysHealNeverDie View Post
    If you want to talk about buffs you have to make more specific, some rogue souls are already very good and Assassin is even a bit over the top due to 2x 4sec stun (imo)
    There have been several suggestions made throughout the rogue discussion section. These suggestions were completely ignored by Ailion. I was hoping with Vladd now things would change. Vladd hasn't even made an appearance yet.

    What good is a stun on a raid boss?
    Rompalstomp - Raid Lead / Warrior Lead "Nefarious"

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 36 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts