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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rogue buffs

  1. #406
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    I agree with the notion that the question ought to be - "Why keep the range/positional requirements?" rather than "Why remove them?"

    The same goes for our DPS - why keep it the same as opposed to boosting it (in PvE)? Is there any doubt that we are lower than everyone else? Is this not a problem worth addressing?

    Naturally when considering class balance we compare ourselves to other classes. None of them have these requirements and all of them can out-DPS even our best ST specs. It's important to note that (and I'm proud of us rogues for this) none of us in this thread are pleading for nerfs to the other classes. Our focus in on catching up to the other classes.

    While there has been the occasional post in here calling for changes that would certainly make us OP, the majority of the on-topic posts have stated that we don't want to be OP. QoL and some dps boosts is really all we want. I don't think it's too much to ask nor do I feel that we've been inappropriate in the way we've asked for it. Is there some fear that these changes would throw everything out of whack and we'd all turn in to Tempagons? Risk-aversion doesn't do any of us well especially when there are weekly hotfixes and the ability to respond even quicker should broken specs emerge.

    It's too early to judge Vladd and it's not really our place to until we've seen something done to our class. I understand the strong reaction, however. No one likes being put so clearly on the defensive, especially when so many people agree on the changes we'd like to see. If he has better idea and alternate methods to what we've proposed I'd love to see them.
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  2. #407
    Plane Walker Baalthorne's Avatar
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    I have quit raiding so I am not up to date in every sense of the word. Last I knew the best rogues I knew were still 1-2k behind lets say Shaman. I mean not like rogues are standing in the dust of others but they were just a little behind. This statement in no way applies to PVP. Strictly speaking PvE

  3.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    I'm personally a little disappointed Vladd went on the defense right away when confronted by the rogue community about QoL issues with rogues in PVE. But i'm going to reserve my judgement and see how this all plays out on his end.
    Please don't take my two previous comments as being defensive. They aren't and I apologize if they come off that way. Both responses were meant to prompt discussion and get more information so that the suggestion can be properly evaluated.

    In the sense that it prompted discussion, success! Not to mention that I got a lot of collateral feedback on other things that I had on my list to look into such as the effectiveness of Pin Down, Concussive Blast (I've never really liked how this functions), energy issues, pet management, and target swapping.

    Did I get the information that I was looking for? Kinda. Am I considering removing the range penalty for Rangers and Marksman? Certainly. Is this a 100% set in stone decision that the penalty will be removed? Nope. See the disclaimer below.

    Vladd's standard disclaimer:

    Just because Iíve mentioned something here or anywhere on the forums doesnít mean that it is set in stone and will come to pass. Testing on PTS, issues found during implementation, or aliens gaining control of the planet can determine that changes need to be made or in some cases unmade.

    I think I'm gonna add that to my sig.

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrazyKlown View Post
    make sexy winky faces @ vlad to make that chage then lol
    I wish the devs would add the melee restriction requirement to all range souls and abilities. I love paragon but playing tempest is fun every once in awhile. This would not change abilities that convert melee to range like grasping the horizon. I think range should have similiar abilities but work in the other direction like grasping.

    I don't hate rogues and I enjoy tempest. I just wish that sometimes we can make changes that make playing souls more dynamic. In the end, we will all have one button if this keeps up.

    This game needs limitations and boundaries with specs and souls.
    Last edited by Sidvader; 12-09-2013 at 12:04 PM.

  5. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    energy issues
    one place to start would be to address the weird, out of place energy cost of shadow fire. the 30 energy cost does not line up with any other rogue abilities that i can find, most definitely not with any ranger abilities, and in fact any other abilities that have an energy cost of 30 or more are channeled abilities which last 3-4 seconds, not abilities that are part of our rotations in our gcd's.
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  6. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    one place to start would be to address the weird, out of place energy cost of shadow fire. the 30 energy cost does not line up with any other rogue abilities that i can find, most definitely not with any ranger abilities, and in fact any other abilities that have an energy cost of 30 or more are channeled abilities which last 3-4 seconds, not abilities that are part of our rotations in our gcd's.
    Not that I think it's an excuse, but the base energy cost of Empowered Shot is 30.
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  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    one place to start would be to address the weird, out of place energy cost of shadow fire. the 30 energy cost does not line up with any other rogue abilities that i can find, most definitely not with any ranger abilities, and in fact any other abilities that have an energy cost of 30 or more are channeled abilities which last 3-4 seconds, not abilities that are part of our rotations in our gcd's.
    The energy cost of cast time abilities scales with their cast time compared to instants. Shadow Fire is 40 as base cost and 2 second cast time, Splinter Shot has 1.5 second cast time and 30 energy cost. Fast and Furious drops the energy cost by 10 and makes them instant, that leaves Shadow Fire with a higher energy cost. That is certainly one source of energy starvation for ranger but most of it is due to Animalism and Feral Aggression both costing 10 energy and being off gcd. It's not an issue with Living Energy but the starvation is fast without it and ranger doesn't have a channeled ability like MM to manage it in those cases.

  8. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crithappens View Post
    Not that I think it's an excuse, but the base energy cost of Empowered Shot is 30.
    it does drop to 28 with controlled fire though.
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  9. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crithappens View Post
    Not that I think it's an excuse, but the base energy cost of Empowered Shot is 30.
    Yeah, but the base cost of Shadow Fire is 40.

  10. #415
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    I PM'ed Vladd about this about a month ago, and while it's a very minor issue, it's still some details.

    My request:
    The buff you get after 5 stacks of Heat Retention is also called "Heat Retention." Would you please give that final buff some other name? It really screws with addons like Karuul Alerts when there are two different buffs with the same name.
    Vladd's response:
    Renamed it to Internal Heat. =)
    Hope Vladd doesn't mind me sharing this.
    Last edited by Juxtaposed; 12-09-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  11. #416
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    Remove ranger melee restrictions, make all ranger abilities 35m like all ranged classes. Remove Assassins positional requirement for backstab, I dunno, rename the ability fatal stab, and let it retain its damage proc with its cooldown. Allow Nightblade to spread fiery spike and gain 5 stacks with a 20 second cooldown ability, cant think of a name right now. Bring up Marksman damage on its builders and finishers, I would prefer that being on rapid fire shot, and bump dead eye shot a little to make it worth standing still for the extra damage. Thats about it, rogues should be dandy.

    One more thing, not only does ranger suffer from starvation, but its damage honestly could take a look at.
    Last edited by Gunzip; 12-09-2013 at 01:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Remove ranger melee restrictions, make all ranger abilities 35m like all ranged classes. Remove Assassins positional requirement for backstab, I dunno, rename the ability fatal stab, and let it retain its damage proc with its cooldown. Allow Nightblade to spread fiery spike and gain 5 stacks with a 20 second cooldown ability, cant think of a name right now. Bring up Marksman damage on its builders and finishers, I would prefer that being on rapid fire shot, and bump dead eye shot a little to make it worth standing still for the extra damage. Thats about it, rogues should be dandy.

    One more thing, not only does ranger suffer from starvation, but its damage honestly could take a look at.
    I posted in another thread a while ago, that flame blitz could give a buff that stacks to 5 (1 stack per combo point) that causes the next weapon flare to add fiery spike to whatever it hits. If you make the duration 30sec or so, you can anticipate when adds will spawn, do a 5cp flame blitz before they spawn, and build up fiery spikes on all targets by just using weapon flare to build back up to 5 cp.

  13. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    snip
    Still misunderstanding, If I am reading this correctly. The main mechanic of this healing soul, is not impacted by whatever pvp penalty/valor/call it what you will.

    It's the reason why running defiler and dom, is a necessity, in small scale pvp, if you wish to attrition. Both of them are strongly based in skills and abilities that are not rooted with pvp debuffs, thus, are inherently stronger, then their dps/healing counterparts.

    Another issue is likely that these souls were made inherently much stronger then their counterparts, due to their inability to stack cohesively (Aimed mostly at puri/defiler healing combo), with others of their own soul.

    So pick at it while you want, pointing out whatever small inconsistencies or misinterpreted ideas/concepts I have about things that in the end, don't actually make my argument less valid.

    Defilers, specifically the links, are among the strongest, if not the singular strongest force in the game, due to the fact that only 2 classes can effectively counter the links themselves (Sin and dom). To nerf sins mana drain, is to cause another resurgence in the strength of dom relative to everything else, which doesn't need to happen, as squirrels and their mana drain, are still competitive, if not completely necessary to play the game in a meta of a defiler/dom combo's choosing.

    I also am still not seeing defiler links as additive. My testing, which I've done about 4 times now, taking 30-40 min each, has the averages equating to roughly a 30% difference, when the 30% link is applied, to a BD with Defensive pose on, meaning, that it's either multiplcitive, which is either a bug, or just how mechanics in this game work. Though this point is completely and utterly irrelevant.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 12-09-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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  14. #419
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    buffing rogues will kill the game (pvp-vise)

    buff other mellee classes to be in competitive to rogue (that would be a good job)

    save the game by buffing warriors(def or off utility), druids(def or off utility), shamans(with def utility), mellee mages(def or off utility).

    stop buffing classes that are OP and most playable for now. buff those who are bad and unplayable and uncompetitive to Rogues(who are most played, most appriciated with numbers like 90% in pvp)

    by the way...rogues ARE OP for like 1 year. Pyros WERE OP for 3 months, Tempest hybrids WERE op 2 weeks....etc...
    Last edited by jebeninick; 12-09-2013 at 04:13 PM.

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Still misunderstanding, If I am reading this correctly. The main mechanic of this healing soul, is not impacted by whatever pvp penalty/valor/call it what you will.

    Didn't misunderstand at all.
    The reason links are not affected is because they are not classified as a form of healing buff.
    They run under the general term of simply being a damage mitigation buff similar to a RIFtstalker's shield.

    It doesn't have the same tag as a Chloromancer's LGV/LBV which is a healing aura, so because of that, the debuff will affect them.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    So pick at it while you want, pointing out whatever small inconsistencies or misinterpreted ideas/concepts I have about things that in the end, don't actually make my argument less valid.
    Never said you were wrong, but that the terms you used were wrong.
    When we say something is fast, we meant is moves at a speed that is higher than average.
    If you say "its not affected by valor", then you're using an improper term and it only serves to confuse the audience you wish to direct your argument because Valor has no effect on healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    I also am still not seeing defiler links as additive. My testing, which I've done about 4 times now, taking 30-40 min each, has the averages equating to roughly a 30% difference, when the 30% link is applied, to a BD with Defensive pose on, meaning, that it's either multiplcitive, which is either a bug, or just how mechanics in this game work. Though this point is completely and utterly irrelevant.
    I am not sure where you got the idea I suggested they were additive.
    I stated in the past, though you may have missed it, that links are multiplicative in nature.
    This is due to the fact that a Defiler link counts as a buff/debuff from another source.
    As such, it gets factored as a multiplier similar to how Sicaron's contract is multiplicative.


    So here is an Example.
    Justicar has an ability that increases healing received by 50%. This ability is additive because it is applied by the Justicar to himself, and is additive to any other healing bonuses found in the soul.

    Chloromancer's Symbiosis, however, has the same healing received bonus of 50% when you are the synthesis target. Unlike a Justicar's ability, however, it is multiplicative because it is being applied to the target from the Chloromancer and counts as another source.

    Its not bugged or broken, that is just how the abilities work and are multiplied.
    If it was additive to valor/cooldowns, a Defiler link would stop all damage entirely.

    In order to "fix" a Defiler, they would need to change the following.
    Make it so links are on the GCD; thereby making purges more effective on them, and lowering the damage mitigation applied.

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