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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Rogue buffs

  1. #391
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    Well, this will be an interesting first 6 months.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?
    I'm really disappointed. You basically just said "Oh it doesn't work? Use something else then." For a limitation that has zero reason to exist and only affects rogue class. Instead of asking "why does it have to be removed?" can you please first tell us why does it have to be there?

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan View Post
    3. there's enough speed buff options for this one
    That's not the point. Similarly you could say the same for the reaver change "Just move backwards a little." It's not about whether the problem could be alleviated, it's about why does it have to exist in the first place. If there's no reason for it to exist, then it is an unnecessary inconvenience to the players.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?
    First off, raid compositions are not set in stone no matter what your guild is for things like GA, they live at all times. Rogue being ranger is almost a necessity if there are more than 2 rogues in DPS roles on Ultane due to the lack of melee DPS specs for add phase we can utilize vs. other callings. I'll take a raid comp which is highly likely (squeezing in 4 rogues is this simple):

    Cleric tank, rogue tank
    Defiler, purifier, chloro
    Bard, pyrochon/harbchon
    3x DPS (2x rogues, 1x something)

    If 2 of those DPS'ers are indeed rogues, one of them has to be ranger in our tactic to kill turrets before they overwhelm us, leaving turrets to defiler+pyrochon+ranger with 2x melee beating on the boss to get it down easier.

    Why not put a tempest on turrets instead of a ranger? Because warriors don't lack the utility to handle disconnects in a graceful matter. BD is SoL if the bubbles prohibit hitting the twin adds. Assassin is SoL (and JWF) if the bubbles prohibit hitting the twin adds. Nightblade will be throwing twilight forces and flame thrusts to the adds if it cannot melee the mobs. Now you're thinking "You can go NB!" but alas, it doesn't have the same amount of sustained as assassin, it is fighting with ranger on the DPS front. Ranger is providing ranged DPS to turrets, leaving a melee DPS slot open for a shaman/harb/paragon which all provide higher DPS and have the defensive CD's to take a bubble or 2 on the twin add phase while having considerably higher single target DPS on the boss.

    If there were no bubbles on the twin add phase, we'd be running assassin. If the bubbles didn't do a lethal amount of damage combined with the adds throwing out spears, we'd be running assassin. Only thing assassin and BD can do to migitate bubbles is to charge through them (apparently you don't get ticks when charging to a target, please don't nerf this). No real ranged DPS, no disconnect handling. All this while harby just blade marks one mob and wails the other from 20m away. Paragon just stands there flailing it's arms for a good 15 secs if forced to do a long disconenct, or they just play some tempalord-variant. Shamans have to play a bit with the mobs, but they can take 2 extra GCD's and dump extremely good DoTs on the other target while waiting for the main target to become available.

    We have to run ranger as it's the highest possible combo for raid DPS for this fight when running more than 1 rogue DPS. Highest possible combo = less time on the boss = less straining on healers = less chance of RNG deaths. As you guys seem to love RNG one-shot mechanics, we have to find a way around the mechanics like the good PvE'ers we are.

    Vladd, you questioning why we run certain specs where we run them is all fine and dandy, but rogues as a calling lack the choices on specs as all of them have considerable drawbacks. It's OK that we have to choose between specs on different fights. It's NOT OK that we are forced to an inferior DPS spec due to mechanics of a fight. While you are talking to the dungeon/raid people, ask them why assassin cannot be used on Laethys, Maelforge, Regulos and Abominus.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladd View Post
    If an encounter strategy is reliant upon stacking on a mob where the 3m minimal range is an issue... then I'm gonna ask the same question as Whozdat and Veldan of why folks aren't swapping out to melee souls for those encounters.

    So, why is a Ranger more desirable in those close quarter encounters over the melee souls?
    Vladd I think you are missing something here. Rogues have an issue no other calling does...their souls are so damn niche based that there are times you have to suck it up and run a soul that is sub par when compared to other callings....Example for melee...fights where the positional issue of Assassin makes it impossible to get a back...so where a warrior can still rock Paragon rogues are suck being 2nd or 3rd best because their best soul just got tossed by positional issue.

    Rounded did a much better explanation but really I think you are falling into the trap of just looking at rogues and not looking at how they relate to the other callings. I know players can be myopic like this, I would hope devs can have a broader vision, especially since there are not 4 different calling devs atm.
    Last edited by Galibier; 12-09-2013 at 12:20 AM.
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  6. #396
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    Not that i want to hurt your argument about Ultane but i use NB or now the NB/SIN spec and i usually end the fight at about 35k and up.

    When i would kill Ultane before tempest and Inq was buffed and i was forced into ranger. I never once had a problem with not being able to hit the boss on the burn phase. Yes we did stack at the end.

    Sure it would be easy to remove the min range. But i have to kinda agree with his reasoning as to why its a non issue.

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  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrazyKlown View Post
    Imo its not gimp'd at all, QoL changes COULD be made, but arent needed. It comes down to running the best spec for the encounter you're on. Maybe you're still int he learning ranger phase but I have no issue. then again 24~25k Ranger parses are fine by me, but its a ranged class so I play it @ ranged like its suppose to be

    Should ranger have aoe like MM? not IMO. Its a ST Ranged Spec for a reason
    should MM Pull the same ST as Ranger? No its a utility spec, bad rogues use MM IMO
    Should the interrupt be changed to not be a finisher? Yes very good point there.
    Energy problems? Not in a raid setting i have no issues so i see no real problem there.
    Target Swapping problems? Not any worse than any other spec, learn the spec better honestly
    Can I point out that, among other things, the most common reason why you NEED a ranged dps is because of frequent target swaps on spaced out targets(that usually need to die fast and can't be cleaved/aoe'd)?
    Can I also point out the reason for Ranger Target Swapping problems is the raptor? And that you have very little control on that thus your "learn the spec better" is nonsense? Especially in those cases where you actually need a ranged dps (spaced out targets).

    Some other points to make:
    - Whether you need Aoe or not is most definitely not the same as whether you need ranged dps or not. Ranger doesn't *need* strong aoe, that doesn't change the fact his AOE is next to useless. (as a side note, please either stop comparing Ranger to MM, while arguing MM should not be used, or the latter).
    - while being a ST spec and nothing much else other than that, Ranger dps is behind other ranged specs that do good AOE, have purges, better/usable/non-gimpable interupts and are better at swapping targets.
    - while energy problems in raid are not a huge problem, they most certainly are very noticeable in dungeons and world play.

  8. #398
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    Guys chill, his question is a good one.

    If the encounter has you stacking all the time, what reason would there be to be using Ranger?
    He has a fair point in that since yes, if an encounter is melee all the time, then it is a fair argument to make.

    I think a better way to phrase it instead, would be encounters that are more dynamic in movement.
    For example Twins, say you get bad RNG, and you have to run towards the boss to get out of it.

    Ah well now you cannot attack anymore, where as other classes could.
    So while it is not a persistent problem, it is a problem that other classes do not have to consider at all during play. They do not need to worry about their position so much.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whozdat
    Your completely misunderstanding /snipped
    I didn't misunderstand, you're using a term incorrectly.
    The healing debuff has absolutely nothing to do with Valor.
    It should not be called Valor at all because the only thing that Valor controls is the damage that is incoming.
    The debuff that is applied universally, for healing, is separate from Valor.
    The two are entirely different mechanics that are not programmed at all to interact with each other, and this has been stated before when it was altered that the Healing debuff was being altered, and it was never called, or stated as being Valor.

    So no, it is not ignoring anything since

    A. Valor has nothing to do with the healing debuff besides being put within the same tooltip area for convenience.
    B. Links are not categorized as healing and so the healing debuff itself cannot affect it.

    Links are similar to abilities such as Shoot To Kill, they are considered buffs/debuffs and so in order to alter them, they would need to be given a PvP flag that alters their effectiveness during PvP.


    And yes its a pet peeve of mine, and yes I think its silly that they wrote the healing debuff in the same tooltip as Valor even though it has absolutely nothing to do with Valor.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaroth View Post
    Not that i want to hurt your argument about Ultane but i use NB or now the NB/SIN spec and i usually end the fight at about 35k and up.

    When i would kill Ultane before tempest and Inq was buffed and i was forced into ranger. I never once had a problem with not being able to hit the boss on the burn phase. Yes we did stack at the end.

    Sure it would be easy to remove the min range. But i have to kinda agree with his reasoning as to why its a non issue.
    I don't want rogues to be buffed out of the wazoo. That would be stupid and detrimental to the game in both PvE and PvP (if reductions are not applied).

    I want the restrictions which are unique to rogues only to be brought up to other class' standards:

    - No minimum range on ranged souls
    *Marksman and ranger are the only souls in the game with this limitation

    - Interrupt in the top DPS specs
    *Assassin and Nightblade don't have one
    *Paragon, Harbinger, Shaman, Tempest, Inquisitor, Pyromancer have one (PHSTIP from now on)

    - AoE options in top DPS specs
    *Assassin doesn't have any
    *PHSTIP has, some specs multiples

    - No positional requirements in top DPS specs
    *Assassin...
    *PHS don't suffer from this

    - No resource management issues in single target situations, AoE can drain energy all it can
    *Ranger starves with ST rotation, have to skip a GCD if we need to interrupt
    *Assassin starves with bad poison RNG
    *PHSTIP has no issues, mana potions have been invented for casters

    - Disconnect handling outside of speccing into a ranged soul for basic builder and finisher
    *Nightblade has Twilight Force, Fiery Spike and Flame Thrust, that's it
    *Bladedancer has to spend the only viable AoE option to handle a disconnect, not really a viable solution
    *PHS: 2 have a button to turn melee attacks into ranged, Shaman is lacking a bit here but has strong DoT's which can be applied form range. Also, Empyrean Ascension.

    If this list seems weird, then it's fully down to your own perception on this matter. Rogues have niche specs and no real options in fights where you need ranged but cannot sacrifice a player from another calling to do it. AoE? We're good on burst AoE from BD if we don't need to disconnect.

    If someone wants to go through this post, start with this question:

    Why do rogues need to have less options, less DPS, less flexibility and less utility than other callings?
    Last edited by Rounded; 12-09-2013 at 03:09 AM.

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaroth View Post
    Not that i want to hurt your argument about Ultane but i use NB or now the NB/SIN spec and i usually end the fight at about 35k and up.

    When i would kill Ultane before tempest and Inq was buffed and i was forced into ranger. I never once had a problem with not being able to hit the boss on the burn phase. Yes we did stack at the end.

    Sure it would be easy to remove the min range. But i have to kinda agree with his reasoning as to why its a non issue.
    So what you're saying is that rogues should be forced to play certain specs correct, while no other class is really forced to play other specs? Remember this is a game people play for enjoyment.

    Honestly it's mind boggling to me seeing vladd defend min range. It's such an archaic part of the game that the only reason I can imagine it was put in place at the start was to make melee/ranged hybrids not perform as well (Although I admit I could be wrong)
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  12. #402
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    ranger is honestly terrible. it's a minor dps bump over mm but i find myself out of energy in 10 seconds and after it's just a horrible soul to play.

    3-30m range? really? a mediocre ranged dps soul has the most limited range in the game, has to manage a pet, has a garbage interrupt, no cc to speak of (lol root that breaks on damage when you have a pet, i mean really?), and no speed boosts unless you want to sacrifice a dps buff or sacrifice dps by going into another sub-soul, i could go on and on about what an awful experience ranger is to play.

    just parsing on dummies my dps goes into the toilet after a few rotations because i am ooe so damn quick and the inconsistency of twin shot makes for wildly varying parses. i (stupidly) put shadow fire in my macro for a short while to see how lazy i could get with the soul and still pull dps better than mm, and i couldn't figure out why it was only going off once through my rotation, so i looked at the tooltip - 30 energy on a 20s cd. oh, so i can't put it in my macro because it uses more energy than everything else i need to use and since i am ooe so damn fast, it won't go off unless i "wait" for it.

    i know i should probably time shadow fire with the other cd's and put it on a separate key or whatever, and with raid buffs it isn't a problem, but it's oversights like that which make me wonder what the heck it is you guys are thinking over there when you designed this soul.

    i am by no means a pro ranger, i hardly play the soul because i hate it and it sucks (lol), but when you don't have raid buffs, i feel like mm is a better choice because it has tools for energy management with little dps loss, whereas with ranger it seems to me that your only option is "just don't do anything for awhile til you get some energy back, then go through your rotation again and go ooe in 10 seconds".
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  13. #403
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    It's funny how some people defend terrible mechanics like they would somehow add something to the game when it's just a default adverse reaction to any change. For example here's some nice quality of life reduction suggestions to bring more flavor to the other callings which should be fine because if they pose a problem it's always an option to play another spec and the game therefore becomes more fun:

    Pyro should not be able to hit targets that are 1, 4, 7, 9, 11, 15, 26 or 33 meters away. Tempest should have a dead zone from 24 to 31 meters and Inquisitor should have a dead zone from 1 to 9 meters.

    Paragon should have a left side positional requirement for Reaping Harvest and right side positional requirement for follow-ups. Shaman should only get the crit bonus from Rage of the North if his character model is larger than his target. Harbinger should have frontal positional requirement on Rending Slash.

    Remove interrupts from the high dps mage, cleric and warrior souls. The interrupt souls should be elementalist, stormcaller, cabalist, druid, beastmaster and warlord.

    PS. Not serious.

  14. #404
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    One of the biggest problems is that we see other classes have their range limitations removed and yet ours are still in place. Paragon gets Shifting Blades, Shaman has their dots, Harbinger never had range issues (and they all have relatively great AoE but that's another issue). Yet, we don't have a viable in-soul option for range in Sin and BD. If BD is supposed to be our counter to the other classes' melee souls in PVE, it needs some innate range ability and a boost to ST (maybe a very small nerf to AoE or make it so that we have AoE outside of Hundred Blades and Dancing Steel). Hundred Blades does not count as a ranged ability. If Sin is meant to be used in both PVE and PVP, it needs to have the back-positioning removed in PVE as well as a viable innate range option and AoE. Fan Out and Swift Shot do not cut it. Especially considering they have a minimum range when paired with Sin.

    As well, our 2 ranged souls have massive limitations. MM has significantly less PVE dps then every other ranged soul (you can only interrupt and purge so much in PVE), Ranger has it's melee range issue, massive target swap problems, and lower dps then every other ranged soul. On fights without range restrictions or target swaps, Ranger should be matching Inquisitor, Tempest, Pyro for ST, but it's not.

    Also, AoE-wise spec we are in a good place. So I don't think any changes need to be made there (maybe bump torrent damage up and place restrictions on the MM channel talents that increase channelled ability damage. This WILL kill Tact-MM but make higher Tact much more viable. Also, if it is meant to be a support, it needs better support abilities then 1 damage-increasing debuff and 1 damage-decreasing channel and 1 armor increasing core. If it is meant to supplement healing, make it supplement healing. Resto Bolt is a nice spammable ST heal, but it is really low (like 2500 non-crit, 5k crit). Curative Torrent is useless unless everyone is stacked, which is not a viable option on a lot of PVE encounters and is completely useless in PVP.)

    Now you can say, just use NB if you are in melee but need to attack ranged adds, but that effectively makes the other 2 melee souls completely useless. As well, NB's AoE took a huge nerf a few patches ago and its ST leaves something to be desired when compared to the other top melee souls. Also, it's ranged attacks are limited to 20m, so tough luck if you have to kill something further than 20m and can't reach it due to encounter mechanics.
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  15. #405
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    I'm personally a little disappointed Vladd went on the defense right away when confronted by the rogue community about QoL issues with rogues in PVE. But i'm going to reserve my judgement and see how this all plays out on his end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

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